Early patterns of the TB.

[vineyridge]

T'was I. I shall once again beat the drum for Herod and Matchem close, since Discovery is Matchem line and Nasrullah has The Tetrarch through Mumtaz Mahal.

I found a book on Google Books that looks to be quite interesting. I hate to read scanned books online, as they are really hard on the eyes, but this one might be worth it.
http://tinyurl.com/Making-the-American-TB

It's from 1916, but it goes into the beginnings from 1800 to 1845.

[Lucy]

If you'd rather not read a scan of it online....someone has gone and published a scan of it. I saw it in a bookstore yesterday. They've done ASB v.1 as well.

[Pan Zareta]

yes that too. But some genes are going to work with female embryos and other will only work with male embryos.

Gender not withstanding, all offspring will not express paternally imprinted genes rec'd. from the father and maternally imprinted genes rec'd. from the mother. Gender of the offspring does determine whether or not the gene may be expressed in the next generation, since the imprinting is "removed" when the gene is passed through the opposite sex to the next generation.

[xfactor fan]

You are correct. My mind was stuck on the differing agendas that the female and male have toward offspring. Sorry for the miscommunication. Hope everybody listens to Pan Zareta.

[vineyridge]

Not on Genetics, but the book I cited makes a huge point of the Civil War's effect on TB breeding.

Most of the early American breeding and racing was in the Southern States, from Virginia to Louisiana. Middle Tennessee, according to the author, was even bigger in breeding than Kentucky. James Jackson, who imported Diomed and other great sires, had his establishment in North Alabama. When the War came, the Southern breeding farms were stripped for the use of the cavalry, and then then what was left was stolen by the Yankees.

That could explain why the American industry (now centered in the Northern States and Kentucky) after the War was so focused on imports, and why so many of the early 4 mile heat horses (the loss of whom the author laments) disappeared. Southern racing wasn't there to support them.

I had never even thought about where the early great imports stood and how the War could have affected American TB breeding.

There actually seems to have been a huge disconnect.

[Matchemforever]

That got me to thinking Vineyridge. (Something I should probably avoid)

The Civil War may have been largely responsible for the creation of Domino:

http://racing.bloodhorse.com/article/44986.htm

The amount of inbreeding in that horse probably went a long way to insure his ability to become so influential with so few crops, ditto his son.

However, I think you're on to something with the loss of the great stamina horses and races. Domino fit the bill for sprints to a T.

But, and I'm getting ready to duck, , it's been hard to find many references to him and his line that don't include unsoundness. That he's so integrated into American pedigrees may have been the beginnings of where the industry is now. Not the only factor, by far. And why I've said it was ever thus- an unsound horse becomes a major breed influence.

I am not disparaging Domino's talent, courage or heart. Nor am I forgetting his problems may have been helped along by early bad training. But you find the same problems in the offspring.

Which leads me to ask again, is there a difference in soft tissue unsoundness and bone unsoundness? Is the soft tissue a precursor to failing bone? And if it is, is that muscular problem as inheritable as the large heart seems to be?

If these horses were out in the wild, the ability to run far, with occasional short bursts of speed, and with underpinnings that stand up would insure survival. That factor does not exist in domesticated horses. Would that make sprinting at cross purposes to the evolution of the horse?

Can you mess up the basic genetics, the ones that were crucial for the continuation of the species, by selecting for sheer speed and nothing else?

[Pan Zareta]

Not on Genetics, but the book I cited makes a huge point of the Civil War's effect on TB breeding.

Something else you might enjoy - Wm. Preston Mangum's A Kingdom For the Horse, The Legacy of R.A. Alexander and Woodburn Farms. I recommend it highly - the best detailed and researched account of the effect of the war on the TB industry in Kentucky that I've read. Remarkably, business was pretty much as usual at Woodburn until the final months of the war. Most of the valuable bloodstock, including Lexington weren't moved until two weeks after Lee surrendered.

It's apparent from produce records in the ASB that several Tennessee breeders moved their stock to Kentucky during the war, Commodore and several of his consorts for one example. Good thing, since Tennessee was under Union control by 1862.

Keene Richards (KY) moved his stock to one of T.J. Welles' plantations in Louisiana, from which his and Welles' stock were moved to Texas after the occupation of New Orleans. This is how War Dance ended up standing here in 1865.

Quarter stock didn't escape unscathed. A great many of the cavalry companies organized in and around Dallas county, TX road off to war on the progeny of Steeldust and Shiloh (and references to match races in camp turn up regularly in first-hand accounts by soldiers from these companies). A drought in 1862 resulted in the dismounting of many cavalry regiments in the western theater for lack of forage. In most cases it appears that mounts were sent back home only if the owner made private arrangement for it. Otherwise, the herd was moved by the Army to a location of its choosing. How many of these ended up alive and back with their pre-war owner is anyone's guess.

The TB industry in the deep south never regained its antebellum strength, but meets did resume at tracks in Alabama, Louisiana and Texas w/in a year or two after the war ended.

[vineyridge]

Young Janus really was two faced. When he is mentioned in the book I'm reading, it is in connection with his gets' prowess at the 4 mile heats. And yet he is a mainstay in QH breeding, so one would assume that he was bred to Quarter mares as well as the staying mares.

Breeding hosses is an expensive hobby for a desperately poor area. The author points out that Kentucky was pretty much undamaged by the War, so its breeding industry could flourish. Tennessee and Alabama were devastated. I suppose the same rationale would apply to Maryland and Virginia.

Another thing author mentions is the pattern of putting an Eclipse line stallion on top of a Herod line mare. He seemed to think that yielded the best mix of stamina and speed in Southern racing of the first half of the 19th century.

[Dave C]

The sum of what you are saying however is that the war had a negative impact on the development of the breed. I do not believe that the US civil war is unique in this regard, wars by there nature are destructive. My point being that the unique qualities of TB's were not developed for military applications, but were undoubtedly hindered over the centuries by the vagaries of war.

[Matchemforever]

Apologies if this is a repeat:

Site shows picture of what are supposed to be the proportions of Eclipse:

http://www.huntington.org/LibraryDiv/LA ... xhibit.htm


I would have to see the references but interesting none the less on history of the Thoroughbred:

http://www.derbypost.com/history1.html

[diomed]

Young Janus really was two faced. When he is mentioned in the book I'm reading, it is in connection with his gets' prowess at the 4 mile heats. And yet he is a mainstay in QH breeding, so one would assume that he was bred to Quarter mares as well as the staying mares.

I like the two-faced comment!
It's true though. He was bred to both. As far as the American TB is concerned, he does not get enough credit. Most old American families have a Janus cross which might explain the affinity later on when QHs were crossed with them.
It does seem unusual that the "founder" of short horses was himself a decent 4 mile horse. That's genetics for ya!

[diomed]

I was wondering about how accurate this site is in regarding actual numbers.
I am thinking about starting another article for Pedigree Post and want to continue an article I wrote.
As far as listing total offspring, can I really rely on this site or is there another source where I can gather accurate information?

[Pan Zareta]

As far as listing total offspring, can I really rely on this site

PQ's a great place to start, but it's an open-edit db and all info gotten here should be verified from more reliable records.

or is there another source where I can gather accurate information?

In regard to contemporary (>~1940) NorthAm produce records and progeny lists, BRIS or Equineline. Otherwise, source(s) are dependent on era and location.

[diomed]

Thanks Pan Zareta.
My research will be early studbook.
I have a copy of a very early version(pdf file from Google books), so perhaps that can be enough to start.
It's just nice to have an updated database to do your counting for you.
The old fashioned way does take more time.

[xfactor fan]

http://www.lrgaf.org/articles/foundation-turks.htm

Interesting article about the early TB's and the Turkoman horses.

The Longriders are a fairly interesting group. They were very vocal about the Disney movie Hidalgo and Hopkins--actually kind of frothing at the mouth about the whole "true story" part of the movie.