Racehorses, and TBs in Warmblood breeding

[vineyridge]

One of the posters on COTH is a German Hannoverian breeder who has been fighting an uphill battle in favor of TBs in Warmblood breeding. Yesterday she went to a TB show in Muenster, Westfalen, Germany organized by the German Equivalent of the Jockey Club and here is what she had to say, with links:

tb in wb breeding - annual show event
so yesterday the tb show took place in muenster (westfalen) organized by some very enthusiastic and idealsitic tb people from the german race horse association. started out with two rings of 12 tb mares for sale, all of them shown and judged from the wb point of view - commentators were dr axel brockmenn/celle, dr marharens/westf, dr hubert uphaus (head of german tb breeding organization) and steffen othendorf (head of graditz stud).

great comments really hitting the point since judging tb from wb perspective is a compeltely different world.

same with three rings of tb stallions, 7 tb stallions shown who already do serve in wb breeding (part 1), ten top tb stallions in tb breeding (part 2) amongst them paolini by lando, winner of some 3,3 mio euros racing moneys and supposed to be the highest ranking tb stallion by winning money ( http://www.paolini-world.de ) and sabiango by acatenango who has returned home to germany after having spend the last three years in france at harras stud and a third ring of tb stallions who are currently offered for wb breeding but -in case of interest- would need to be required and licensed yet.

each horse was commented with respect to family/damline and if there was a connection in its pedigree with respect to wb breeding it was explained. and of course potential pros and cons inherited were discussed in a very open and educational manner.

mares and stallions were ranked afterwards and the mare who won (dieva by acambaro x nandino - floating gaites and stunning move - uphill canter, swinging back in trott - walk could have been better) immediately sold to the böckmann stud.
to encourage the organizers to keep this alive as an annual event of most value for both kind of breeds, wb and tb, i really hope there will be more horses finding new homes in wb breeding following this event as the right audience seemed to have been there, couple of hundred people.
this was the third time they set up this event and they grew more an more professional any time special with putting lots and lots of work effort in it prior the show travelling and previewing respective mares in order to be suitable for wb breeding in the frist place.
big work effort and great job done!!!

the warendorf state stud sent expansion by ehrentusch o/o hanover hope xx http://www.landgestuet.nrw.de/index.php?id=52&hengstid=104 in a stuning under saddle appearance, his tb dam hanover hope was there herself along with a two year old son by ehrenpreis (another son of waf stat stallion ehrentusch) - great to see the entire family picture and evident similarities in all three horses!

the holstein verband showed ibisco by royal solo x local suitor (first year at stud and 80 mares) and armand by winged love x chief singer who already had his first half tb crop on the ground this year which is very well bespoken. http://tinyurl.com/6flnpr

jan greve from the ndl sent wilawander by nashwan x danzig (former celle state stud) http://tinyurl.com/5zgujt; and albaran by sure blade x königsstuhl. the latter probably the most desired stallion by wb breeders given his breathtaking appearance, outspoken gaites (natural wing an dcadence and desired uphill canter) - he had his first breeding season this year and it will be exciting to see his foals next year! http://www.hubertvornholt.de/albaran.htm

they arranged for some succesful half tb sport horses (mainly eventers) to be shown in a very professional manner jumping under their common (mostly professional) riders and the highlight in the end was carola koppelmann showing le bo (by lauries eisenherz) in grand prix dressage.

here is the entire program, with respect to the stallions (hengstparade teil 1 and 2 and vollbluthengste) you can google almost any of them as they are well known race horses. http://www.warendorfer-rennverein.de/neu/downloads/Ablauf_Kurzform.pdf

i took some pictures but thats only a very small collection, i still hope to find s.o. else who took more and better pics...

http://pets.webshots.com/album/568106408AgFZvP
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http://hippologi.com

http://muensterland-pferde.de

Wouldn't it be wonderful if The Jockey Club or TRF could do something like this during the WEGs in Lexington? We all could learn from it, and it might help some horses find new homes or new careers after racing and/or race breeding failure.

[adrienne]

I think this is an interesting subject.

I honestly think that the feelings against thoroughbreds in warmblood breeding are uniquely American.

I do think this is because there have been thoroughbred mares in the US who have been bred willy-nilly to warmblood stallions and created some not so not offspring. I think people have lost out on the idea that even if the thoroughbred mare is *really nice* you have to breed her to a stallion that compliments her. Germans are using TBs to improve older types, putting prettier heads on, and improving the canter/jumping.

So it's like - you have to use the thoroughbred lines for what they are good for, not just use them because they're cheap and readily available.

I worked for someone in the US Hanoverian world who was *violently* against all thoroughbreds and would rip them apart for conformation that was, honestly, better than the average horse in her own breeding herd. This is a dangerous and, IMO, ignorant position.

At times, a 1/3 of the stallions at the Celle State Stud have been thoroughbreds. Thoroughbreds ARE very important influence in Germany. And the cool crazy thing, I think we have WAY better thoroughbreds here in the US.

[Bedouwia]

I think that all of the Thoroughbred Breeders Associations need to do much more out reach to the non-racing horse enthusiasts. I have been trying to make this argument for some time now in Texas, and we are actually making a little progress. This is important, not only for our OTTBs, but also for those many breeders who need a secondary market.

If you look at the warmblood production in Ireland, they have made excellent use of their Thoroughbreds to cross with the Irish Draft horses, and produced some of the best sport horses available in my opinion. However, in Ireland, they also seem to produce a lot of excellent riders, with a lot of courage. Maybe it is due to their hunting experience?

The problem that I have encountered here in the U.S. is that too many of our riders are actually a bit afraid of Thoroughbreds. Sad, to say that, but it has been my experience. They have taken to the slower, and colder type horses, and then often adjusted the sport to fit the horses they like. I cite the ever diminishing requirements in eventing.... no longer a track and field portion, shorter and slower cross country, etc. This is less at the higher levels perhaps, but still eventing is more and more a contest of who has the best dressage score. I think the tide will turn, but we need some good riders to produce and prove that our Thoroughbreds are both sane and athletic. We have a few riders and trainers who can do this, but perhaps not in sufficient numbers?

Just my opinion.

Bedouwia

[helen in FL]

Wouldn't it be wonderful if The Jockey Club or TRF could do something like this during the WEGs in Lexington? We all could learn from it, and it might help some horses find new homes or new careers after racing and/or race breeding failure.

This kind of already happens with approvals and DSHB shows. Granted there is not one singular "Thoroughbreds Only" show, but we come close to the same lines.

I honestly think that the feelings against thoroughbreds in warmblood breeding are uniquely American.

I have to disagree with this one. There is a great prejudice against any American Thoroughbred from the European WB base. I believe they are jealous/upset they couldn't breed to ATM stallions like Storm Cat!

So it's like - you have to use the thoroughbred lines for what they are good for, not just use them because they're cheap and readily available.

VERY good point! This happens more than it should but it really comes down to breeder education. It's more done for emotion of the joys of breeding rather than a superb athlete. If they want to keep the foal for life I say let them do it, because I know that the breeders in the US that are breeding for SOMETHING of the international quality, do not do this.

They also utilize a good TB mare when they see one. One of my favorite stallions is out of just a fabulous TB mare who was just a phenomenal producer.

I think that all of the Thoroughbred Breeders Associations need to do much more out reach to the non-racing horse enthusiasts.... This is important, not only for our OTTBs, but also for those many breeders who need a secondary market.

I completely agree.

[Elles]

In Holland most people don't like TB's PERIOD. People don't know anything about TB's and they would not recognize a TB if they would trip over one. And people read and hear these stories about TB's being hot and crazy, no good for anything except racing and their downhill build. The name Storm Cat does not ring ANY bells around here, I can assure you. In Holland we have a saying; "what the farmer does not know he does not eat" and that explains it all.

[vineyridge]

In Holland most people don't like TB's PERIOD. People don't know anything about TB's and they would not recognize a TB if they would trip over one. And people read and hear these stories about TB's being hot and crazy, no good for anything except racing and their downhill build. The name Storm Cat does not ring ANY bells around here, I can assure you. In Holland we have a saying; "what the farmer does not know he does not eat" and that explains it all.

Dr. Greve is doing what HE can.

Because of the world wide prejudice against TBs in warmblood breeding, having a stallion and mare showcase in Lexington at the WEGs would guarantee that the best of the best worldwide would be present to learn what the Thoroughbred can offer in all the FEI disciplines.

[soft hearted]

[quote="Elles"]In Holland most people don't like TB's PERIOD. People don't know anything about TB's and they would not recognize a TB if they would trip over one. And people read and hear these stories about TB's being hot and crazy, no good for anything except racing and their downhill build. /quote]

You know, I can actually remember standing with my 16.2 mare (very stout sort) after a riding moment with her (she had her quirks, that day was a good day) and having a lady boarding there come over and enthuse about my "Warmblood" and how maybe I must have changed my mind.
Being well known as a TB lover, *most people just knew* I'd trade in my "wasp-waisted TB for a REAL horse someday...
The fun part was letting this woman go on and on about "you'd never see THAT shoulder, or THAT hip on a TB, I just KNEW you'd find a decent Warmblood and see the light", then smile peacefully and flipped her lip to show her tatoo

[Elles]

Soft Hearted that is hilarious!

[adrienne]

And people read and hear these stories about TB's being hot and crazy, no good for anything except racing and their downhill build.

The interesting thing is that I have heard from American enthusists of Hanoverians/Holsteiners (ie: German Warmbloods) that they don't want Dutch horses because they're too hot



But aside from that... Dutch Warmbloods also used thoroughbreds to a high degree??

Lucky Boy to start?? "Lucky Boy contributed to Dutch sport horse breeding by contributing a string of top jumpers to the international scene. Sire of Calypso who finished second in the 1980 World Cup final and then followed that up two years later with a victory in the 1982 final in Göteborg.
Lucky Boy sired 16 stallion sons, the most famous of which was Octrooi, who had a successful career in the USA under the name, Best of Luck. Interestingly, he was out of a mare by yet another Thoroughbred sire, Koridon. Also there was Willi Melliger`s Van Gogh, and The Freak with Hugo Simon and later Dirk Hafemeister, and Anne Kursinski`s Medrano, and all three of them were in Los Angeles for the 1984 Olympic Games."

[Elles]

Maybe because a lot of Dutch warmbloods are hot a lot of Dutch people blame the TB blood in these horses for the temperament.