Sahara Heat--New Stallion
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Monmouth Matt
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Agree Mike. I would also. This type of market enviroment does reveal opportunities. What are your thoughts on Crafty Friends numbers....thought he might do a little better.
CS Seattle Fitz number makes him unreachable (124)....don't know why BH shows such a low number vs. CS's information.
Concerto is stuck in the declining purse pool that is Fl..... I've always liked him and feel he would get Pa, & NY breeders @ 5K....very honest.
CS Seattle Fitz number makes him unreachable (124)....don't know why BH shows such a low number vs. CS's information.
Concerto is stuck in the declining purse pool that is Fl..... I've always liked him and feel he would get Pa, & NY breeders @ 5K....very honest.
And DOWN the stretch they come!
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Monmouth Matt
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I admit that Seattle Fitz needs to show me something so for now at the right price I'd only take 1 shot with him but I feel he's worth at least that. Concertro ... phht ... what a steal and wish he was here. Have to get back to you on crafty friend.
In 2009 I'm waiting on pa. breds as I sent all my mares out there until Jersey indicates any level of seriousness. Waiting on a Honour and Glory and a Mutakddim. Those mares will be bred back to Holy Bull and Out Of Place respectively in 2009 and another of our mares ( a maiden ) will also visit Holy Bull. Had to take notice at $10K.
In 2009 I'm waiting on pa. breds as I sent all my mares out there until Jersey indicates any level of seriousness. Waiting on a Honour and Glory and a Mutakddim. Those mares will be bred back to Holy Bull and Out Of Place respectively in 2009 and another of our mares ( a maiden ) will also visit Holy Bull. Had to take notice at $10K.
Bring 'em back tired ; but bring 'em back sound !
Cassidy,
Good luck, decent race record, great ped...usually the makings of a nice regional sire. But most of the responses remind me of why I don't post on here too often anymore and when I do I get a bunch of pissy responses (half of them from those who didn't get the point and can't read between the lines). We've been trying to get people to understand the Ontario Sired/wherever bred dual Restrictions and we always get the same responses.
cheers
Good luck, decent race record, great ped...usually the makings of a nice regional sire. But most of the responses remind me of why I don't post on here too often anymore and when I do I get a bunch of pissy responses (half of them from those who didn't get the point and can't read between the lines). We've been trying to get people to understand the Ontario Sired/wherever bred dual Restrictions and we always get the same responses.
cheers
too weird to live...too rare to die
www.ascotstudfarm.com
www.ascotstudfarm.com
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bcassidy
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AscotStud---it does get frustrating but when you are trying to get people to break old habits it can be difficult. I don't know if I am not getting the points accross clearly or they just don't agree with the facts.
I didn't learn about stallion syndication until I had been into the game for a long while so it took me a while to understand the benefits as well. I find a lot of people enamored with the fun associated with pedigree analysis and nicking but I've come to learn that the end result should be about producing a good race horse that can make money in this game and the easiest way I know to do that is get the horse/s into the best racing situations you can. It's not about having the best horse, its about having the best horse in the race. I can understand those breeders searching for the animal that will be the once in a lifetime individual and if that is what you are trying to accomplish than out of state stallions probably make the most sense but if you are trying to make money in this game then the state bred program and restricted races are a great choice for the regional breeder.
I didn't realize Ontario had the same program as NJ--dual registry. If you had a few minutes could you tell me more about it. I think your purses are quite substantial. I have a NJ bred that went through his conditions in 3 starts (Mdn Clm, NW1 and then NW2) and with his breeders awards he has earned almost 100k already. I was looking at some tracks that have the open NW1 condition that exclude restricted races and I came up with NY and Woodbine. I was amazed to see the purses at the Woodbine meet. I sent our boy to NY a week ago to try the open conditions at Aqueduct this winter but if Woodbine had remained open I would have loved to try him up there. With the synthetic surface and those large purses I am going to pay closer attention to Woodbine this spring. Any help on the type of horses that do well there? Trainers I should talk to or other general information you can provide would be very helpful. BTW--What is the average day rate? maybe a range? Thanks for any help you can offer.
BTW our boys name is Our Royal Affair---a homebred, 3 yr old gelding by my stallion Honor Defend. The mare was very average but I loved her conformation match with him and she gave me a gorgeous individual, his full sister is equally well made. On a funnier note, the mare's name is Gold Canadian so maybe her foals will love running in Canada...
I didn't learn about stallion syndication until I had been into the game for a long while so it took me a while to understand the benefits as well. I find a lot of people enamored with the fun associated with pedigree analysis and nicking but I've come to learn that the end result should be about producing a good race horse that can make money in this game and the easiest way I know to do that is get the horse/s into the best racing situations you can. It's not about having the best horse, its about having the best horse in the race. I can understand those breeders searching for the animal that will be the once in a lifetime individual and if that is what you are trying to accomplish than out of state stallions probably make the most sense but if you are trying to make money in this game then the state bred program and restricted races are a great choice for the regional breeder.
I didn't realize Ontario had the same program as NJ--dual registry. If you had a few minutes could you tell me more about it. I think your purses are quite substantial. I have a NJ bred that went through his conditions in 3 starts (Mdn Clm, NW1 and then NW2) and with his breeders awards he has earned almost 100k already. I was looking at some tracks that have the open NW1 condition that exclude restricted races and I came up with NY and Woodbine. I was amazed to see the purses at the Woodbine meet. I sent our boy to NY a week ago to try the open conditions at Aqueduct this winter but if Woodbine had remained open I would have loved to try him up there. With the synthetic surface and those large purses I am going to pay closer attention to Woodbine this spring. Any help on the type of horses that do well there? Trainers I should talk to or other general information you can provide would be very helpful. BTW--What is the average day rate? maybe a range? Thanks for any help you can offer.
BTW our boys name is Our Royal Affair---a homebred, 3 yr old gelding by my stallion Honor Defend. The mare was very average but I loved her conformation match with him and she gave me a gorgeous individual, his full sister is equally well made. On a funnier note, the mare's name is Gold Canadian so maybe her foals will love running in Canada...
best regards Brendan
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bcassidy
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Monmouth Matt---BTW---I don't know that I would classify Sahara Heat as as a disappointing runner. He won a Grade 3 race and earned over 170k. He is out of a GR2 winning mare who herself is out of a GR1 winning mare and Breeder Cup Sprint Champion. To be honest with you, if he had won a GR 1 race we couldn't afford him to stand in NJ---he would have his book full in Ky standing at Darley.
In my mind, he is an excellent regional stallion prospect, young, unproven, well made, from a great stallion out of an exceptional female and second dam.
He crosses exceptionally well with mares by sons of Mr Prospector, Northern Dancer, Deputy Minister and Turn to. On the business side of the equation--- a breeder can own a share in him for two years breeder rights, get dual state registry for his foals, finance the share cost through the syndication, have unlimited breedings for other mares owned by the share owner for the first four years and position the investment for future equity appreciation and state bred stallion awards while getting a 70% federal tax deduction this year.
BTW--Majestic Warrier, Dance with Ravens, Malibou Moon and Pulpit are very similar in pedigree and they all stand for significantly higher stud fees.
In my mind, he is an excellent regional stallion prospect, young, unproven, well made, from a great stallion out of an exceptional female and second dam.
He crosses exceptionally well with mares by sons of Mr Prospector, Northern Dancer, Deputy Minister and Turn to. On the business side of the equation--- a breeder can own a share in him for two years breeder rights, get dual state registry for his foals, finance the share cost through the syndication, have unlimited breedings for other mares owned by the share owner for the first four years and position the investment for future equity appreciation and state bred stallion awards while getting a 70% federal tax deduction this year.
BTW--Majestic Warrier, Dance with Ravens, Malibou Moon and Pulpit are very similar in pedigree and they all stand for significantly higher stud fees.
best regards Brendan
As a mare owner, I have no interest in a syndication share. For one, it will give me monthly upkeep and advertising expenses for years, until and if the stallion gets any early winners. For another, it will require me to breed to the same stallion for 4 or 5 years, when Im not really wanting to be stuck with a single stallion that long. The odds of this horse making it is such a long shot that I can't even imagine it. Nowadays, you have to stick with a stallion for 4 or 5 years to see if he is a success or a failure, and 99 out of 100 stallions will be failures. So then Id still be stuck with a stallion share in a failed stallion, still owing bills.
Before you tell me Im wrong, I have had, and have, syndicate shares in stallions. The only one I made any money with was when I bought into Carnivalay when he was retired at $10,000, bred to him for 5 years, and then sold the share for $20,000. My current shares I can't give away. Ill never do it again.
The problems I would have in breeding to this stallion is that 1. he ran but didnt place at 2, 2. he only won routing, and in not very fast time. I would think, especially if you want to stand a horse in NJ (where Im from and raced), that you would need a horse with speed. Actually, I think anywhere, you need a horse with speed. Routing, one paced stallions rarely make good stallions. But this is all just my opinion, and its worth exactly what you paid for it.
Before you tell me Im wrong, I have had, and have, syndicate shares in stallions. The only one I made any money with was when I bought into Carnivalay when he was retired at $10,000, bred to him for 5 years, and then sold the share for $20,000. My current shares I can't give away. Ill never do it again.
The problems I would have in breeding to this stallion is that 1. he ran but didnt place at 2, 2. he only won routing, and in not very fast time. I would think, especially if you want to stand a horse in NJ (where Im from and raced), that you would need a horse with speed. Actually, I think anywhere, you need a horse with speed. Routing, one paced stallions rarely make good stallions. But this is all just my opinion, and its worth exactly what you paid for it.
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bcassidy
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Fireslam---thank you for the post----I can't ever remember telling anyone on this board that they were wrong. Everyone's experiences are very different. There are certainly risks with any investment but it didn't sound like Carnivalay worked out so bad.
I have a Private Interview share that I haven't used in years--I paid 7,500 for it, used it 4 times and every year for the last 5 years or so they mail me a check for about 2,000 and I don't pay any expenses.
Out of curiosity what other syndicates were you a part of? What were the things you didn't like about them in addition to the few items you already mentioned?
What do you think about Defrere as a syndicated stallion?
I would appreciate more specific input if you have the time and inclination to do so. Thanks.
I have a Private Interview share that I haven't used in years--I paid 7,500 for it, used it 4 times and every year for the last 5 years or so they mail me a check for about 2,000 and I don't pay any expenses.
Out of curiosity what other syndicates were you a part of? What were the things you didn't like about them in addition to the few items you already mentioned?
What do you think about Defrere as a syndicated stallion?
I would appreciate more specific input if you have the time and inclination to do so. Thanks.
best regards Brendan
The problems I would have in breeding to this stallion is that 1. he ran but didnt place at 2, 2. he only won routing
The problem with North American breeding is that people would rather breed to an unsound speed horse than one that can go a distance of ground. Then they complain when there isn't a Triple Corown winner....duhduhduhduhduhduh.
Maybe having AP Indy crosed with a very nice sprint family would be an asset to NJ Breeders.
AscotStud wrote:The problems I would have in breeding to this stallion is that 1. he ran but didnt place at 2, 2. he only won routing
The problem with North American breeding is that people would rather breed to an unsound speed horse than one that can go a distance of ground. Then they complain when there isn't a Triple Corown winner....duhduhduhduhduhduh.
Maybe having AP Indy crosed with a very nice sprint family would be an asset to NJ Breeders.
I find this amusing from someone who stands two stallions, both which
1. Ran successfully as 2 year olds
2. Won sprinting.
Thank you for making my point.
That being said, I do wish Brendan luck. This is a tough time to bring a stallion into a regional market that is having major problems. I hope he finds a way to market his stallion and get mares to him.
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Monmouth Matt
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AscotStud wrote:The problems I would have in breeding to this stallion is that 1. he ran but didnt place at 2, 2. he only won routing
The problem with North American breeding is that people would rather breed to an unsound speed horse than one that can go a distance of ground. Then they complain when there isn't a Triple Corown winner....duhduhduhduhduhduh.
Maybe having AP Indy crosed with a very nice sprint family would be an asset to NJ Breeders.
There seems to be a change in the air on the breeding side towards some dependability and soundness. Mabe I'm just imagining it and the numbers are always the final arbitor, but it seems like we are seeing a bit more popularity in the solid....get me anything type of sire. I was happy to see Lemon Drop Kid continue to get runners and have a healthy fee increase.... and nobody breeding to him is looking for a 2 yr. old sprint champ. I could be dead-wrong, but maybe breeders are shifting there priorities a little. Hope so.
Also, I think everyone on the forum wishes Brendan great success with the new stallion. I didn't read the responses as an attack on Brendan or Sahara Heat.....just sharing thoughts, opinions and ideas. I have found that this is a pretty honest,helpful community regardless if it is somewhat anonymous. My comment about the stallion's race career pertained to the amount of money he fetched at auction vs. his career accomplishments. I am sure most folks would be disappointed after spending the $3.5, but that info is not always accurate either. Brendan appears to be a man of action, and I respect that!
And DOWN the stretch they come!
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bcassidy
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Monmouth matt---You are absolutely correct. I didn't take anyone's comments personally and I have pretty thick skin anyway.
great comment about the possible change in breeding strategy, I hope that is happening as well.
I must say I am not a big fan of racing 2 yr olds, maybe because I have never had much success with it. It really isn't a huge advantage when racing in a state bred program. What's the difference whether you clear your conditions as a 2yr old or older----it's just more important to be able to get through them-----and then maybe be good enough to win some stake bred stakes races...You can still bank a lot of money with an older horse and there is no rush to get there in my opinion....Look at Joey P, Hey Chub, Whos the cowboy, etc...
Fireslam----Unfortunately, if Sahara Heat had more success at the track he would have been standing in Ky for a heck of a lot more money and I know he had a stone bruise which significantly hindered his race career. He did have a 4 race stretch early in his career when they thought they had something very special. In my opinion he is the perfect kind of stallion for a regional market like NJ.
great comment about the possible change in breeding strategy, I hope that is happening as well.
I must say I am not a big fan of racing 2 yr olds, maybe because I have never had much success with it. It really isn't a huge advantage when racing in a state bred program. What's the difference whether you clear your conditions as a 2yr old or older----it's just more important to be able to get through them-----and then maybe be good enough to win some stake bred stakes races...You can still bank a lot of money with an older horse and there is no rush to get there in my opinion....Look at Joey P, Hey Chub, Whos the cowboy, etc...
Fireslam----Unfortunately, if Sahara Heat had more success at the track he would have been standing in Ky for a heck of a lot more money and I know he had a stone bruise which significantly hindered his race career. He did have a 4 race stretch early in his career when they thought they had something very special. In my opinion he is the perfect kind of stallion for a regional market like NJ.
best regards Brendan