If ALPHA filly in pasture is she more likely to win OTT?

[merse]

I bred a Group 2 winner (FLASHING NUMBERS) although I did not race him. I was asked once whether I noticed anything different about him when he was growing up. Once weaned, he was turned out with a bunch of other yearling colts and allowed to be horses - roughhousing like a bunch of teenaged boys. All of them were outfitted with a halter and a neck band for identification. When we would visit the farm, at least one or the other colts were always missing some piece of tack but "Flashman" always had both of his. I've made up my mind that if I ever see that again, I will race that foal myself.

[vallygirl927]

haha, funny!

[walaa]

I have Duke of Venice, who has been on the track his whole life, he is abloslutely the lowest man on a totem pole you have ever seen. A 300,000 yearling, racing for 5 years, off and on, and cant kick my pony's ass, doesnt even try, to the tune of several scrapes, etc., and vet bills. My Saratoga Six mare, unraced, is the biggest b*&^%$ ever, VERY dominant, yet her 2 geldings to race I dont think have won 60,000 between them. I have one of her unraced daughters, very dominant in the pasture, but of course I have only 5 horses, so who knows what would have happened had she raced. I dont think it has anything to do with their pasture personality, training has alot to do with it as well, how tough you are in the pasture I dont believe has much to do with how you perform on the track. If you have ever lived on a racing, training or breaking farm you would be proved wrong, over and over, and over again, about any hypothesis about pasture behavior and how it correlates to racing performance. I have never actually got any horse to the track, because I dont have the money, so take it for what you will, but the farms I have lived and worked on, I thank god I didnt have any money, because I would have lost it all betting on who I thought " for sure" would be the kick ass race horse of all of them

[Roger]

This is an excellent thread, thanks for sharing your thoughts. This is the type of thread that keeps me coming back to display my ignorance.
We have in our geriatric division three old cripples that I should have put down a long time ago, but they like to eat so we keep them. One Ever An Aggie retired a maiden and is completely and always has been submissive, but he had a great deal of talent and he just could not quite get there. Windseeker ran up over $100,000 and around mares he is submissive, but he is the boss of everyone else. He was not real fast, but if he could make eye contact he intimmedated about everyone. Tiger Slew ran up $200,000 and when he was right, he was the Secretariat of $5,000 claimers. He could do a 1:10 at Lone Star, but most of the time he just blew by the competion and no one would challenge him. Windseeker an Slew both knew the value of pinned ears. I just wish they would have won more for us. Class is what we are talking about I think and it will be interesting to see how much class steroid free horses have.

[aardvark]

I agree with the comments that you can be proved wrong basing a horse's future success on its pature personality, but this thread has me thinking that based on pasture personality which trainer could get the best out of the horse.

[Fair Play]

This is an interesting topic. The first time I thought about this question was when a trainer I galloped for bought 2 yearlings from the same consignor who were turned out together. One was the most arrogant, precocious 2 yr old I have ever ridden. He won his first three starts like an old pro and ran 7 years. The second one was like a sweet chubby QH to ride but couldn't break his maiden on the B circuit. The interesting thing was, in July of their 2 yr old year they were turned out for a few weeks for a break. The slow one completely dominated and ran circles around the good racehorse. The good one spread his legs and chewed like a frightened foal. Yet with a rider on, he would eyeball any horse and intimidate them. He was dangerous in the stall too and once struck me and threw a pitchfork at me.

Since those days I have seen dozens of big strong dominant foals who are useless racehorses and shy, low ones who are super. Maybe it has something to do with their desire to please or focus on what others want rather than what they want. Perhaps slow ones assert their superiority with brute force. I think if I were buying a weanling or yearling out of a field, I would tend to go lower on the pecking order all things considered equal.

[Roger]

In my previous post, I left out the point that I was trying to make. "Senile" To me the alpha mare is the one who eats where and when she wants to. The other mares, geldings, and babies all get out of her way. I don't think its about who is the fastest in the field when considering alpha. I think there are many reasons for a horse's class and maybe his dam's rank has something to do with his desire to win, but in many cases horses have to be taught how to win? This is great.

[vallygirl927]

Fair play, I think you could be on the right track. I can imagine a horse that wanted to please would give it his all.......no matter what his ranking in the totum poll. I can tell my broodmare has no desire to want to please me and it makes me so angry. She would just prefer to be left in the pasture rather than come out to be ridden on trail. The more I work with her colt, the more suprised at how much he wants to please me.....he throws his head into his halter, stands for anything, i.e. saddling and LOVES to be groomed, (another thing my mare hates). He is a pleaser and trys anything I ask him too.... and I can imagine that would transfer onto the racetrack......maybe thats what they call "heart".

[briarhalo]

Now this is very interesting to me as well. I have a now rising 3 yr old who, believe it or not who has lead my herd of (was 4, now 3) since she was weaned....I kid you not. One of those in the herd, is her full sister who is 2 yrs older and an orphan who was kept intact until he was 4, now rising 6. The other was a gelding now sold.

So, she is deifintely the boss. And fast!! Wow, can she run.......And then there is the gelding. So can he......he has learned to run away! Beacuse of horse, they (the 2 fillies) love them when they chose. So he has learned to stay just that much ahead.

Now when the other gelding was here, this was when the orphan was stil intact. This other gelding had done VERY well at the track. The game my boy used to play, as the gelding used to always try to impress the ladies, where as Houston just wanted to play, was antagonize the gelding so that he would give chase......he seemed to just stay a step ahead.....

Well, I guess I'll never know, as my TB's have ventured to the show ring....well it's not too late for the 2 yrold yet.......LOL

[ratherrapid]

briarhalo probably to some extent pasture dominance translates to racing success. personality, place in the herd, are variables you can point to when your horse comes out of the gate.

dominant horses in general might be less nervous on race day, and, EVERYTHING ELSE BEING EQUAL, might excel more at persevering in a close race.
i'd avoid thinking that dominance in a small herd is a big big racing factor. lot's of things create the racing envirment, and class often for a small brained animal is a function of conditioning and experience, i.e. the more they race when they're in good enough shape to get around there, the greater the confidence they display.

same deal for those down in the pecking order. they are each ahead of some other.

[njc2000]

And then there are those who "hang and wait!" I trained a QH who would blast out of the gait and run like blue blazes and then he would just hang, waiting for company to catch up . No amount of encouraging would keep him in front and of course, by the time the others caught up to him they blew by him like he was tied to a post. He ran a lot of 2nds and 3rds- finally sold him to be a roping horse.

Also trained a TB who in 22 starts never broke his maiden- same thing except HE would never run past them all! The one time he came around the turn into the stretch in front, he threw up his head and looked around like "where the heck did everybody go??!!" We called him Johnny Paycheck as he nearly always lit the board but never, ever made it across the wire in front. He retired sound and took to riding fence and chasing cows. Wish I knew how he had behaved in the herd.

I DO think though, that the ones raised in a herd have enormous advantage over ones raised alone and I think most trainers and jockeys will agree that it makes training one to race "in company" SO much easier when they have had experience running with other horses in the pasture.

[karenkarenn]

My OTTT gelding is a big Alpha Male, but he was terrible on the track. He had speed but no desire to out win them all.
Karen

[BenB]

I have had a mare which gallopped all day inthe pasture hunting chasing every other horse in that field ( about 25 acres) ended up with very severe lungbleeding so I gave her away.

The bleeding was a result of her beiing a nerveous wreck

On paper she is the best I,ll ever bought or will buy.

[reedhill]

I have had a mare which gallopped all day inthe pasture hunting chasing every other horse in that field ( about 25 acres) ended up with very severe lungbleeding so I gave her away.

The bleeding was a result of her beiing a nerveous wreck

On paper she is the best I,ll ever bought or will buy.

Not having racing knowledge, are "bleeders" heriditary?
If your fine mare had not bled, would she have been a great winner?

[BenB]

YEP

Maybe but IF, means nothing to me. The bleeding did occur, and nothing else