French/South American Connection

[Shammy Davis]

I was just wondering if anyone had any thoughts on a trend that I've researched which indicates a very strong pattern of French and South American breeding connections beginning in the 1970's, possibly before. Interesting enough it seems to be prevalent during the late 70's thru the early 90's. Significant breeding has occurred using French stallions to South American mares. Apparently the trend is declining as new lines tend to be NA/SA patterned. I conclude this as a result of SA form being more adaptable to the NA than to the classic Europeon races. Am I reading this right or am I wandering along a blind alley? Comments? or

[ZiaLand]

Shammy, I've been doing some research along a similar path. Some of what I learned from a French and SA bloodline afficianado may shed some light on these breeding patterns. French TB breeder Marcel Boussac developed a line of very successful horses including Tourbillon who was sired by Ksar(FR) out of Durbar(FR), a mare who was inbred to St. Simon. When Boussac's textile empire collapsed he exported Cardanil2 (a son of Chef-de-Race Djebel(FR) who was sired by Tourbillon(FR) to Argentina, and crossing Cardanil2 on Argentina bloodlines (especially Good Manners who was actually a son of Nashua) produced an explosive nick. I think that was probably the beginning of many SA breeders immulating the same patterns. Later, these bloodlines were crossed with North American bloodlines (such as Mr. Prospector and other speed lines) to produce athletes that carried French stamina, South American soundness and North American speed.

It's interesting that in researching the pedigrees of many successful TBs, I'm finding a good percentage of them trace back to Tourbillon or Ksar on both sides of their pedigrees, sometimes with multiple crosses. Hope this helps your theory.

Laurie

[Shammy Davis]

Zialand: Looks like we're looking at the same time line Do you know of any other significant breeders other than Boussac in France? Also, who are the breeders in SA we should be looking at? I think it will be beneficial to us if we can identify the breeders and look for patterns on both sides of the Atlantic. Primarily, the SA connection is more important, but the French were certainly intriguing enough for the young Aly Kahn in 1960's to move his stud from Ireland to Chantilly. Unfortunately for TB world, we going to see a pot full of Northern Dancers from France. More thoughts As always, best wishes - Shammy

[ZiaLand]

Shammy, my research hasn't gotten that far, but here's what I can tell you. It seems some of the SA haras (or horse farms) carried on the basic breeding patterns that Boussac championed, and some of that included crossing highly inbred (or linebred) individuals that were total outcrosses to each other. The SA breeders took it a step further by exposing stallions from other areas of the world (i.e. France and North America) to the totally different genepools of the mares they owned. A recent example of this would be Southern Halo, who was virtually ignored in North America, but after exportation to South America sired many champions and G1 athletes. If you look at Southern Halos pedigree, it's interesting to note that his dam traced back to several French lines, and these bloodlines may have been "reinforced" by crossing him on SA mares who also traced back to French lines. More Than Ready is Southern Halo's legacy in the US and note that among the young leading sires he is near the top of the list. More Than Ready was considered one of the best of his crop and was a derby contender (in 1999, I believe). If you follow his pedigree back, you'll find his dam's side traces directly to Tourbillon (through Naskra), a "reinforcement" of the French lines his sire carried on his dam's side, and includes Nashua and Mr. Prospector.

These bloodlines are of particular interest to me because I own a mare who traces tail-female directly to Boussac's breeding program. (She's going to Lazy Lode(ARG) this year based on a breeding recommendation that I happen to agree with wholeheartedly.) I also own a daughter of Southern Halo whose dam traces back to French and ARG breds. (Do you see a pattern in my breeding stock selections? LOL)

If you look at the pedigree of Rocking Trick (owned by Madelyn, a member of this forum) you'll see why I have taken a keen interest in this young stallion. Others that I'm looking at for "down the road" consideration are Malek(Chi) and Memo(Chi). The Unbridled line also holds some interest for me.

Glad to find another forum member who shares my interest in the French/SA connection.

Laurie

[madelyn]

Rocking Trick thanks you for your kind comments.... sound, durable, fast, nicely bred, yup. If Vale had been in the US she would be a reine by now.

[Shammy Davis]

Madelyn: Huh:?: Is there an here or a misplaced post. Shammy

[madelyn]

If you look at the pedigree of Rocking Trick (owned by Madelyn, a member of this forum) you'll see why I have taken a keen interest in this young stallion. Others that I'm looking at for "down the road" consideration are Malek(Chi) and Memo(Chi). The Unbridled line also holds some interest for me.
Laurie

[Shammy Davis]

Zialand: I'm going to get my notes together and see if I can't post some competent info about the subject. I recently acquired an imported yearling filly from France who is predominately ND on top and bottom, but who is loaded with a plethora of mares from ARG, BRZ, URU, and CHI with a few nicks from GB and FR. I'm still trying to figure out how her mare got back to FR. I'm sure I can resolve this, but I get confused with the French stud system. I'm not sure they are breeding TB's or goats . Sellais Francais sounds like a cheap French version of the Fiat with only two wheels and one door. Now a 2 year old, this filly is going to be big and I believe she was bred for steeplechase or timbers as the importer is well known in VA and the Mid-Atlantic for that. I'll get back with this ASAP as my tropical and equcatorial juices are flowing. I'm ready to move to Argentina. It's 3 pesos to the $ and I can triple my lifestyle . Hmmmm How many Wild Again, In Reality, and Drone mares can I buy at that value Best wishes - Shammy

[wilf]

O.K. Shammy and Zia now you are talking. I spent a few weeks in Argentina in 87 and came back with 3 horses. I took a small share in the cheapest one called Good Taste by Farnesio, check out the pedigree it gets right into your research.Anyway he proved to be a pleasant surprise and in one of the most thrilling races EVER at Santa Anita he ran two Derby winners to a nose and head defeat. It was the $500g San Bernardino with Alysheba and Ferdinand. Showing the characteristic SA toughness he went 6furlongs in 1.09 , was passed by the big two then came again.After reading your opinions on these bloodlines I can finally see where the resources came from when he dug in that day.Happily he stands in his native land once more.Unfortunately that experience spoiled me forever but what the hell its still fun to win a cheap maiden anywhere.

[Mahubah]

Haven't done a huge amount of research on the topic, but I think Brazilian Thoroughbreds tend to have even more of a French flavor about their pedigrees than do the Argentines.

[ZiaLand]

wilf, that must have been the thrill of a lifetime to have a horse in against those two..and win! Good Taste's bloodlines are definitely right up my alley...Farnesio was very closely related to Pausada (Lazy Lode's 2nd dam). They were both sired by Good Manners out of a Cardanil mare, with Dogaresa as Farnesio's 4th dam and Pausada's 3rd dam. They might possibly have been bred by the same haras. It sounds as if your horse had the same grit that Lazy Lode showed in his races. Sure hope he passes it on to his kids.

Mahubah, I haven't come across any Brazilian breds as yet in my research, but I'm sure I will eventually.

Shammy, I'll look forward to your post.

Laurie

[Mahubah]

Check out Romarin, Sandpit, Siphon, Indian Chris, Redattore, Ay Caramba, and Joe Who for starters -- they're all Brazilian-breds that came to the US for further racing. Most of them do seem to pull in French breeding, some of them pretty heavily, and through a lot of sources besides Tourbillon. Interesting.

[llbean]

Is anyone going to write a book on this subject?

BTW, a good example of Brazilian breeding is Siphon. This article ( http://www.pedigreepost.com/archives/RockingTrick.html ) mentions some advantages of crossing Siphon mares with Rocking Trick and shows just how powerful the Prince Rose/Brantome nick found in Rocking Trick's 2nd dam La Vire and Siphon's grandsire Felicio was.

-llbean

[ZiaLand]

Excellent article, Ilbean. I read it avidly.

Laurie

[Flight]

Very interesting topic even in this part of the world.

We've had a few South American horses imported in the past and the one thing that did strike me was how tough most of them were. There really haven't been enough though to know if that was the norm.

We are currently standing Taimazov and Estambul from Argentina and the thing that strikes me with both of these gallopers was that they were top line sprinters yet their pedigree would suggest middle distance.

My Halo stands in New Zealand and I think he would have to be the only stallion down this way that has TWO lines of Northern Dancer through daughters. We are a bit over the top with all male crosses ND down here.

You can also add Hard Buck to the "french influenced" list. I find the pedigree of this horse very very interesting and must try to find a way of getting him to Australia..........