Full siblings question

[Roger]

I have to remind myself from time to time that breeding is like shooting dice. The secret is to cut out as many variables as you can and in that way you improve your odds of getting what you want. Great horses are able to be great a all distances and that is why so few of them breed on. I'm only guessing but most (well maybe a lot) of the great runners seem to have dams with stamina and sires who had miler speed. When great is bred to great we tend to see regression. Whow, I have created the worlds worse generalization.

[Linda_d]

Love this thread~and I appreciate all of your information on here.

This may be the 100K question, but I've always wondered what is "IT" about a horse that makes him/her a winner? Esp. as in this thread, when they have the same genes, same trainer, same everything, but what makes one stand out against the others?
Is it as previously stated, the attitude of the individual horse? Or also stated, just pure luck?

Thank you all for the great bundle of information on this forum. I truly enjoy reading and learning from you all.

Actually, full siblings don't have the same genes. Each parent has a pair of chromosomes for each trait/modifier/switch etc and contributes one, but that's not the same every time, although many may very well be the same. Some traits appear to be connected in some manner to the X or Y chromosomes, so sometimes the sex of the siblings may also be a factor in inheritance.

[Bunty Lawless]

With all this talk about Nicanor this past weekend, was trying to think of other full brothers or sisters to top racehorses who have been disappointments. Can anyone help me out?

Just about every one of them. The easier question to answer would be which ones were as successfull. Full Siblings to good racehorses should be sold to realize maximum profit potential.

cng,

It would appear that the owners of Toussaud believed in your theory--except of course the two times they bred to A.P. Indy and got zip. Count that as verification of your theory. On the other hand, I've seen exceptions too, if one measures earnings as well as level of racing.

[xfactor fan]

I think the figure for siblings is that they have on average 25% of genes in common.

[vineyridge]

Couple of comments--
Since I'm coming from the sporthorse world, my favorite example of full siblings that worked are Bold Ruler and Independence.

Then are Pharos and Fairway. His Majesty and Graustark. Add Quatre Bras and Marguerite de Valois to Sir Gallahad and Bull Dog

If full siblings aren't a better bet than not, why is one of the often repeated principles of breeding to actually breed FOR full siblings. That one should repeat the breeding to make sure the first success wasn't just a fluke?

[journeyman]

The proof's in the pudding. If a horse was not a good racehorse, the chances are overwhelming that he will not be a good sire, regardless of who his brother is. A friend of mine told me once, "I got a brother who is an electrician and I can't change a light bulb."

[Roger]

How does all this fit into the nicking theories? Most full sibs fail to live-up to the high standards of the big horse and I feel that this hold true on the track and in breeding shed. What influence can a sire and broodmare sire have in predicting success? Some I would think, but how much?

[el camino]

The odds of full siblings having the identical genes is the same as them having none in common.

Gold Digger was bred to Raise a Native seven times but there was only one Mr Prospector
1st full sib was Search for Gold. 1 win in 5 starts including a stakes placing. As a stallion, sire of 594 foals, 17 sw, AEI 1.02
2nd was Kentucky Gold 1 win/7starts sire of 234 foals AEI 0.62
3rd Certain Class - died as 2yo
4th Red Ryder -unraced sire in SAf
5th Gold Mine -unraced sister dam of 7 foals 2 winners, 1 SW but grandam of Queen Tutta and American Champ
6th Veel Reef - the last foal from Gold Digger, produced at age 22 was unraced and became a stallion in India.

[xfactor fan]

vinyridge,

Do you by chance have a conformation photo of Independence? Or point me at a site that has one? I'd really like to see how the genes played out with Bold Ruler's full brother.

[DDT]

vinyridge

Bold Ruler had 5 full siblings, none of which, including Indpendence who made his money jumping, compared in the least with Bold Ruler, racing or breeding.

DDT

[UmmYeah]

Relevant to this discussion: http://www.drf.com/newsletter/02hov.html

[Linda_d]

Relevant to this discussion: http://www.drf.com/newsletter/02hov.html

Excellent article.

[st. louis kid]

Michael Jordan's son plays for the fighting illini at the Univ. of Illinois. He is a benchwarmer, and while not without talent, he is not even close to the level of ability of his father.
Steffi Graf and Andre Aggassi have had children, your first instinct is to think wow what a great tennis player they will be. Reality is that probably will not be the case. Seems to work the same way in racing.

[vineyridge]

I know Independence wasn't anywhere near the horse that BR was, but he was successful at a totally different line of work--long distance, turf, great stamina and jumping talent. Which is probably why BR is still a great favorite of the jumping crowd.

One of the theories about breeding is to linebreed to close relatives. Full, 3/4 and 1/2 siblings together in a pedigree are considered to be good things. Those relatives, even if duds themselves on the track, are said to be genetic magic farther back in the pedigree.

Just thought of Vice Regent and Viceregal. Viceregal was a better race horse, but Vice Regent was a much better sire. Who would have thunk it?

[diomed]

The Manning brothers both won Super Bowls. They are both sons of a former professional QB.
Very rare example but it does happen.

With horses, sometimes it's a crap shoot but there are mares who just produce very good racehorses no matter to whom they are bred to. (Better Than Honour, etc).