Each breed/hybrid is distinctly different. Mustangs survived in the wild because only the hardiest of their ancestors survived. After generations and generations, of course you're going to have a more self-sufficient horse.
Trying to compare them to thoroughbreds is apples and oranges. Thoroughbreds have been bred primarily for speed, not free range hardiness.
stallions with fertility/libido issues...
Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, madelyn
griff wrote:I may be simplistic but think a 50% to 60% +/- foals to covered mares ratio is terrible..
Talk about bad mare management all you wish. I have seen too many wild ferral [there are no mustanges left] mares that have not been vaccinated or wormed and would not know what grain is it offered and a vast majority, certainly much much better than 50% to 60%, either have a foal nursing or a very big belly.
They multiply like rabbits and the governement is spending millions feding them in what almost looks like feed lots. And they do this w/o the benefit a a top notch mare manager.
griff
Griff, Thoroughbreds are bred in an artificial environment. Thoroughbred mares are forced into heat with lights and bred at a time of year most wild mares won't even let a stallion sniff them. A wild stallion won't be able to get close to mounting a wild mare until she is ready to breed, TB mares are taken to the stallion when Man perceives she is most ready to breed. Wild animals are much smarter than Man when it comes to the time they are ready to breed, doctors and regumate not withstanding
Nu
Sorry, I don't buy it.. Most of those wild horses out west are ferral QH and QH are 90% TB and those ferral QH/TBs breed without any SETTLE and carry w/o Regumate and never get vaccinated or wormed or are fed any supplements or gain for that matter. And they appear to have a 90% cover to foal ratio vs the sorry 50% to 60% that is produced with out awesome mare and stallion management.
Has anyone ever looked at the foal vs cover ratio of pasture bred TBs vs "normal" breeding?/ I'll bet if it's found the pasture bred ratio will far exceed the scientic ratios that are being produced
It's not the TBs fault, it;s our fault.
By the way, except in a very few remote areas there is no mustange blood left in then wild.. They are domestic stocke gone wild. And again, that gone wild stock is mostly QH which is mostly TB.
Pogo was right.
griff
Has anyone ever looked at the foal vs cover ratio of pasture bred TBs vs "normal" breeding?/ I'll bet if it's found the pasture bred ratio will far exceed the scientic ratios that are being produced
It's not the TBs fault, it;s our fault.
By the way, except in a very few remote areas there is no mustange blood left in then wild.. They are domestic stocke gone wild. And again, that gone wild stock is mostly QH which is mostly TB.
Pogo was right.
griff
"We has met the enemy and he is us" [Pogo]
griff wrote:Sorry, I don't buy it.. Most of those wild horses out west are ferral QH and QH are 90% TB
By the way, except in a very few remote areas there is no mustange blood left in then wild.. They are domestic stocke gone wild. And again, that gone wild stock is mostly QH which is mostly TB.
That's just not factually accurate.
First off, Mustangs, from the very beginning, were all from domesticated stock. And secondly, while there are certain herds that show recent breed characteristics, there are just as many that retain their Iberian characteristics.
Also, introducing recent breeds into the wild herd doesn't mean centuries of environmental survival characteristics will be over ridden immediately.
Read a February 2007 The Horse.com article on stallion fertility:
Brinsko says"So the diets we are feeding our horses are high in products that are NOT favorable for optimal semen quality and fertility."
He goes on to point out that we need to rebalance the Omerga 3/Omega6 ratio or DHA/DPA and "generally pastures are much higher in the pre-cursor for Omega 3 such as DHA which seems to help fertility"----"It would be interesting to look at grass-fed horses on pasture n versus grain-fed horse diets in relation to the ratio of DHA & DPA."
I wonder what Foolish Pleasure's live foal to covered mare ration was when he was moved to pasture breeding.
Could it be that those scrubie farrel horses with no Settle or Regumate have much better live foal to covered mare ratio than "managed" stallions because we are feeding them grain, which is high in Omega6 ?
Again, I say POGO was right.
griff
Brinsko says"So the diets we are feeding our horses are high in products that are NOT favorable for optimal semen quality and fertility."
He goes on to point out that we need to rebalance the Omerga 3/Omega6 ratio or DHA/DPA and "generally pastures are much higher in the pre-cursor for Omega 3 such as DHA which seems to help fertility"----"It would be interesting to look at grass-fed horses on pasture n versus grain-fed horse diets in relation to the ratio of DHA & DPA."
I wonder what Foolish Pleasure's live foal to covered mare ration was when he was moved to pasture breeding.
Could it be that those scrubie farrel horses with no Settle or Regumate have much better live foal to covered mare ratio than "managed" stallions because we are feeding them grain, which is high in Omega6 ?
Again, I say POGO was right.
griff
"We has met the enemy and he is us" [Pogo]
griff wrote:Sorry, I don't buy it.. Most of those wild horses out west are ferral QH and QH are 90% TB and those ferral QH/TBs breed without any SETTLE and carry w/o Regumate and never get vaccinated or wormed or are fed any supplements or gain for that matter. And they appear to have a 90% cover to foal ratio vs the sorry 50% to 60% that is produced with out awesome mare and stallion management.
Has anyone ever looked at the foal vs cover ratio of pasture bred TBs vs "normal" breeding?/ I'll bet if it's found the pasture bred ratio will far exceed the scientic ratios that are being produced
It's not the TBs fault, it;s our fault.
By the way, except in a very few remote areas there is no mustange blood left in then wild.. They are domestic stocke gone wild. And again, that gone wild stock is mostly QH which is mostly TB.
Pogo was right.
griff
That was the point I was trying to make. Wild animals in a natural environment are much better off than micromanaged domestic stock. Man isn't as good at it as Mother Nature.
Nu
If you see a band of half dozen feral mares and all have foals by their side or one in the oven it probably means that stallion is getting a 100% foal crop from mares covered in spite of the lack of excellent mare care.
Most of the bands I saw seemed to have at least a 90% foal crop and if you ever visit one of those BLM holding yards you would think they have litters.
I read an article in The Horse that said the way we feed horses may be at least part of the problem and need to figure out how to get the omega 3/omega 6 ratio back in balance. . Horses evolved eating grass which is high in omega 3 and we put them on grain and soybeans which are high is omega 6.
Maybe the diet of the feral horses is why they have such a high conception rate.
griff
Most of the bands I saw seemed to have at least a 90% foal crop and if you ever visit one of those BLM holding yards you would think they have litters.
I read an article in The Horse that said the way we feed horses may be at least part of the problem and need to figure out how to get the omega 3/omega 6 ratio back in balance. . Horses evolved eating grass which is high in omega 3 and we put them on grain and soybeans which are high is omega 6.
Maybe the diet of the feral horses is why they have such a high conception rate.
griff
"We has met the enemy and he is us" [Pogo]
Barbaro06 wrote:Think of this too...the feral stallion is not breeding 100-200 mares a season nor is he hopping on a plane to breed on southern hemisphere time.
Just a thought....
He is also covering as many mares as will accept him, as often as possible. He is not restricted to two covers a day, nor is the mare waiting on a clean culture report, and an appointment.
So Run for the Roses, as fast as you can.....
Barbaro06
Very few stallions cover 100 to 200 mares per season and very few hop a plane for the southern hemisghere. And even the stallions with not many mares seem to have the same sorry 50% to 60% conception rates.
Also, what Madelyn said.
I have a very good friend with a very good stallion that is having fertility problems and she is going to see if omega 3 supplements and turn out into a grass paddock a couple hours a day will help next year.
griff
Very few stallions cover 100 to 200 mares per season and very few hop a plane for the southern hemisghere. And even the stallions with not many mares seem to have the same sorry 50% to 60% conception rates.
Also, what Madelyn said.
I have a very good friend with a very good stallion that is having fertility problems and she is going to see if omega 3 supplements and turn out into a grass paddock a couple hours a day will help next year.
griff
"We has met the enemy and he is us" [Pogo]
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A study has been some yrs ago with shetland ponies, a herd with s a stallion and a group of mares kept in a rural part nearby the dutch rivers.
At the end of august 85% from the mares were in foal. Just remember that overhere, most mares are coming good in season at the end of april, may and that depends largely on the wheather. When spring comes late than most mares are coming natural in heat at the end of may.
Who likes to have an end of may foal.
At the end of august 85% from the mares were in foal. Just remember that overhere, most mares are coming good in season at the end of april, may and that depends largely on the wheather. When spring comes late than most mares are coming natural in heat at the end of may.
Who likes to have an end of may foal.
Barbaro06 wrote:Think of this too...the feral stallion is not breeding 100-200 mares a season nor is he hopping on a plane to breed on southern hemisphere time.
Just a thought....
I think that the problem with conception rates long predates the practice of breeding stallions to 100-200 mares a season or shuttling. I remember reading a magazine article years ago that noted that cattle breeders expected 90% calf crops while horse breeders had to work hard to get over 60%.
I think the biggest reason for low conception/live foal rates is that domesticated horses are bred primarily for performance rather than primarily for producing off-spring. A dairy farmer isn't going to make any money if his cows don't get pregnant so that they can freshen (produce a calf and provide milk) next year, but a TB breeder isn't going to make money if his horses don't actually win on the race track (either for him or for somebody else). So, the dairy farmer culls cows that don't produce calves every year while the horse breeder culls mares that don't produce winners regularly, and will keep a stakes winning mare that only produces a live foal every other year if her foals win stakes when they do get to the track. Moreover, it's likely he'll keep a filly or two from that stakes winning mare for his broodmare band, especially if they're stakes winners themselves, and the stakes winning colts from this mare may go on to become sires, passing on many of her poor reproductive traits to their daughters.
For feral horses, as for dairy cattle, breeding "success" is producing a foal every year, so getting in foal and being able to carry and birth that foal is selected for first. For domestic horses, getting in foal and being able to carry and birth the foal are much less important than producing a foal that goes on to eventually be a great performer.
As our current dilemma with the wild horses under BLM jurisdiction demonstrate, maybe a high conception rate isn't such a good thing.