top sires by surface

[Aug27]

Looking at stallions whose progeny have run 1-2 in grade 1s and grade 2s since Jan-03, ranked in order:

Dirt
sire Dirt
ranking Grand Total 2017
1 A P Indy 85
2 Awesome Again 45
3 Unbridled's Song 45
4 Distorted Humor 40
5 Saint Ballado 36
6 Storm Cat 32
7 Wild Rush 29
8 Indian Charlie 26
9 Smart Strike 26
10 Pulpit 25
11 Giant's Causeway 22
12 Seeking The Gold 22
13 Tale Of The Cat 22
14 Unbridled 21
15 Cherokee Run 20
16 Elusive Quality 19
17 Touch Gold 19
18 Carson City 18
19 Hennessy 18
20 Silver Deputy 17

Turf
sire Turf
ranking Grand Total 1186
1 Danehill 33
2 Dynaformer 30
3 Giant's Causeway 25
4 Smart Strike 23
5 Storm Cat 21
6 Theatrical 19
7 El Prado 18
8 Lear Fan 15
9 Rahy 15
10 Sadler's Wells 15
11 Diesis 14
12 Maria's Mon 14
13 Pivotal 14
14 Pulpit 14
15 Singspiel 14
16 Langfuhr 13
17 Sky Classic 13
18 Chester House 12
19 Sultry Song 12
20 Affirmed 11
20T Indian Ridge 11
20T Talkin Man 11

All Weather
sire All weather
ranking Grand Total 277
1 Street Cry 17
2 Tiznow 17
3 Giant's Causeway 13
4 Tapit 7
5 Candy Ride 6
6 Empire Maker 6
7 Sir Cat 6
8 Tribal Rule 6
9 Unbridled's Song 6
10 Chester House 5
11 Distorted Humor 5
12 Forest Wildcat 5
13 Lake George 5
14 Pleasant Tap 5
15 Unusual Heat 5
16 A P Indy 4
17 Awesome Again 4
18 Mizzen Mast 4
19 Point Given 4
20 Smart Strike 4

This shows (for example) that there have been 2017 instances of horses who ran 1st or 2nd in GI and GII races in the past six-and-one-half years on Dirt tracks. A.P. Indy sired 85. These counts are not distinct, i.e. if a particular runner had more than one such finish, the sire was given credit for each of them. For example, Bernardini had five 1st or 2nd finishes in G1 / 2 events:
1st - JOCKEY CLUB GOLD CUP
1st - TRAVERS STAKES
1st - PREAKNESS STAKES
1st - JIM DANDY STAKES
2nd - BREEDERS' CUP CLASSIC

[Sysonby]

Thank you for posting this.

Turf and dirt have always been somewhat opposite surfaces and turf aptitude is definitely its own niche. Interesting that some of the best dirt sires can't cross over to AWS or at least as successfully.

Distorted Humor is probably the most obvious (40 dirt vs 5 synthetic and how many of the 5 are second place finishes of Hystericalady who was one of the best horses in her division on dirt and couldn't buy a win on synthetic).

There's also Indian Charlie (26 dirt vs not on the synthetic list); Tale of the Cat (22 on dirt vs not on the synthetic list) ; Awesome Again (45 dirt vs 4 synthetics); Tiznow (17 synthetic vs not on the dirt list); Pulpit (25 dirt vs not on the synthetic list) and Street Cry (17 synthetic vs not on dirt list but how many of those are for a single horse Zenyatta?)

Some of this might be subject to manipulation--I know which tracks I wouldn't run at if I had a really promising Distorted Humor colt for example and those owners have the capital and flexibility to adapt accordingly.

[ASB]

These numbers seem to be off.

Indian Blessing should be represented for Indian Charlie in the AWT but isn't. She's won and placed in quite a few Cali G stakes.

[Sysonby]

At least per this database, she's won 2 California stakes: La Brea S. [G1], Santa Ynez S. [G2]. The Breeders Cup was at Monmouth the year she won the Juvenile Fillies.

There do not appear to be any other graded stakes winners on synthetic listed here:

http://www.bloodhorse.com/stallion-regi ... harlie.pdf

Indian Way and Indyanne had to leave California and run on dirt before they achieved national level success.

[Aug27]

I show 28 results for Indian Charlie, for 12 runners.
Indian Blessing has 10 of them (8 dirt and 2 all-weather).
I pull the data from thoroughbredinternet, so they may not be capturing the surface (or distance, class, etc) accurately all the time.
Indyanne was a Grade 3, and Indian Way ran 3rd in the Prioress, so those results did not meet my initial criteria. (G1/2 1st or 2nd).

[Sysonby]

I just mentioned Indian Way and Indyanne because they were superior horses once they got off the fake stuff. Indian Blessing also failed miserably onto H'wood Cushion as opposed to whatever they had at the time at Santa Anita.

Obviously the numbers could be skewed by manipulation but if I was shopping for California, Indian Charlie foals might not be at the tope of my list.

[Aug27]

I understand (and agree).
Unusual Heat and In Excess are two examples of Sires whose offspring seem to do quite well in Calif but "not so well" elsewhere.
Makes sense - as an owner - to run them where they can succeed, right?
The sheer volume of good AP Indy Dirt runners really jumps out, to me at least.

[LB]

I understand (and agree).
The sheer volume of good AP Indy Dirt runners really jumps out, to me at least.

For the majority of A.P. Indy's years at stud, most races in the U.S. were run on dirt. So as a superior sire, it's not surprising he'd have good results on that surface.

[Sysonby]

For the majority of A.P. Indy's years at stud, most races in the U.S. were run on dirt. So as a superior sire, it's not surprising he'd have good results on that surface.

Same with Storm Cat. In fact, I don't know what it means but take away Giant's Causeway and Tribal Rule (who has a regional advantage along with Unusual Heat) and there's not a lot of Storm Cat influence in the top AWS sires.

But maybe there is no rhyme or reason--look at Pulpit and Tapit for example.

[Fireslam]

I understand (and agree).
Unusual Heat and In Excess are two examples of Sires whose offspring seem to do quite well in Calif but "not so well" elsewhere.
Makes sense - as an owner - to run them where they can succeed, right?
The sheer volume of good AP Indy Dirt runners really jumps out, to me at least.

I think those figures are quite skewed, since In Excess and Unusual Heat stand in California. Im sure very few are shipped out to run elsewhere.

[bdw0617]

If Roke taught us anything, it's that giant's causeway has no grade 1 winners on the dirt. At least he didn't by the time he left the forum and I can' tthink of any off the top of my head sense.

I could very well be wrong and please correct me if so.

But if i'm not, than aren't these numbers smewhat...scewed?

I generally consider tiznow and tale of the cat to be pretty versitle. I don't even really think of tale of the cat as a dirt sire, more of a turf sire.



also how much has zenyatta hindered street cry's stats.

[Sysonby]

If Roke taught us anything, it's that giant's causeway has no grade 1 winners on the dirt. At least he didn't by the time he left the forum and I can' tthink of any off the top of my head sense.

First Samurai had a couple of Grade 1s on the dirt.

Besides Rokeby was so over the top about this stallion, I always wondered if GC stepped on his foot at some point....

[Aug27]

Giant's Causeway (22 dirt):

date race finish class runner
4/2/2005 FLORIDA DERBY 2 (Gr 1) NOBLE CAUSEWAY by Giant's Causeway--Mimi's Golden Girl, by Seeking The Gold
8/27/2005 HOPEFUL STAKES 1 (Gr 1) FIRST SAMURAI by Giant's Causeway--Freddie Frisson, by Dixieland Band
10/1/2005 OAK LEAF STAKES 1 (Gr 2) DIAMOND OMI by Giant's Causeway--Hum Along, by Fappiano
10/8/2005 CHAMPAGNE STAKES 1 (Gr 1) FIRST SAMURAI by Giant's Causeway--Freddie Frisson, by Dixieland Band
2/4/2006 HUTCHESON STAKES 2 (Gr 2) FIRST SAMURAI by Giant's Causeway--Freddie Frisson, by Dixieland Band
3/4/2006 FOUNTAIN OF YOUTH STAKES 1 (Gr 2) FIRST SAMURAI by Giant's Causeway--Freddie Frisson, by Dixieland Band
3/25/2006 RAMPART HANDICAP 1 (Gr 2) OONAGH MACCOOL by Giant's Causeway--Alidiva, by Chief Singer
5/5/2006 LOUISVILLE BREEDERS' CUP HANDICAP 1 (Gr 2) OONAGH MACCOOL by Giant's Causeway--Alidiva, by Chief Singer
6/17/2006 FLEUR DE LIS HANDICAP 2 (Gr 2) OONAGH MACCOOL by Giant's Causeway--Alidiva, by Chief Singer
11/4/2006 FIRST FLIGHT HANDICAP 2 (Gr 2) WIN MCCOOL by Giant's Causeway--Win Crafty Lady, by Crafty Prospector
11/11/2006 RED SMITH HANDICAP 2 (Gr 2) ANGLIANA by Giant's Causeway--Pratella, by Jade Hunter
6/30/2007 SUBURBAN HANDICAP 2 (Gr 1) FAIRBANKS by Giant's Causeway--Alaska Queen, by Time For A Change
3/1/2008 GULFSTREAM PARK HANDICAP 2 (Gr 2) FAIRBANKS by Giant's Causeway--Alaska Queen, by Time For A Change
4/5/2008 OAKLAWN HANDICAP 2 (Gr 2) HEATSEEKER by Giant's Causeway--Rusty Back, by Defensive Play
5/26/2008 LONE STAR PARK HANDICAP 1 (Gr 2) GIANT GIZMO by Giant's Causeway--Golden Antigua, by Hansel
6/28/2008 SUBURBAN HANDICAP 1 (Gr 1) FROST GIANT by Giant's Causeway--Takesmybreathaway, by Gone West
9/27/2008 HAWTHORNE GOLD CUP HANDICAP 1 (Gr 2) FAIRBANKS by Giant's Causeway--Alaska Queen, by Time For A Change
11/29/2008 KENTUCKY JOCKEY CLUB STAKES 2 (Gr 2) GIANT OAK by Giant's Causeway--Crafty Oak, by Crafty Prospector
3/14/2009 FAIR GROUNDS OAKS 2 (Gr 2) FLYING SPUR by Giant's Causeway--Lakeway, by Seattle Slew
4/4/2009 ILLINOIS DERBY 2 (Gr 2) GIANT OAK by Giant's Causeway--Crafty Oak, by Crafty Prospector
6/13/2009 FLEUR DE LIS HANDICAP 2 (Gr 2) SWIFT TEMPER by Giant's Causeway--Glasgow's Gold, by Seeking The Gold
7/19/2009 DELAWARE HANDICAP 1 (Gr 2) SWIFT TEMPER by Giant's Causeway--Glasgow's Gold, by Seeking The Gold

More of a Grade 2 caliber, it appears ...