GSV and Breeding Top-Class Winners

[George William Smith]

Sometimes I get so caught up in cashing a nice ticket at the track that I forget to mention that the GSV is such a good tool in breeding winners and top class winners at that. However, much good it is as a betting tool, it is vastly more valuable as a tool for breeders seeking to upgrade their stock.

This weekend's Big Cap is a perfect example of the kind of GSV it usually [there are always exceptions] takes to produce a top-class runner that wins or is capable of winning in a big race like this.

It is also important to note that you can make those decisions on whether to use the GSV as a tool in your breeding program without ordering expensive broodmare analyses from me by using a subscription to this site. Anything that you can use to breed better thoroughbreds and have more fun in this business is a very good thing. The more fun you have in this business, the more fun I have updating and keeping my numbers current.

Best, George William Smith

[pam]

Thank you. I really appreciate the work you have done. I use your GSV score to help me see if my hypo matings are a good choice or not.
Here's my question, I have a stallion and his sister, both with average GSV scores. It's easy to find a stallion for the mare and the baby GSV score increases. Is there a chance of increasing the GSV score as much mating my stallion with another mare. I have tried hypo-matings with him and can not raise the score as high as his sister. I get the feeling no matter who I mate to the score will be lower.
Thanks for listening.

[George William Smith]

Since they are full siblings, their GSV is not the problem. Stallions usually have a far higher GSV score because they have much stronger pedigrees but here that is not the problem.

Try mating her to a stallion like Seeking The Gold and let me know if the sister gives a lower score.

George

[George William Smith]

Since they are full siblings, their GSV is not the problem. Stallions usually have a far higher GSV score because they have much stronger pedigrees but here that is not the problem.

Try mating her to a stallion like Seeking The Gold and let me know if the sister gives a lower score.

George

[pam]

Actually, I sent the mare to Sir Cat. The brother is the one I'm working on. I really like both of these kids, and I wanted a mare to buy for him. But everybody he crosses with, the hypo mating score can not compete with his sister. I found it was easy to find stallions for her to cross and the score would jump.
I have yet to find a match for my guy where the score either was not lower than his own or just a few points above his own.
I know one way I used the GSV when I was searching for a mate for her was to subtract the hypo mating score from the proposed stallion's score to see how big a difference it was. I figured the closer I got to his score the better the match, according to the computer program.
Is there an example of the score raising more than a couple of points above the stallion's?
Anyway, I am very interested in your feedback. And, thanks for your time.
p

[George William Smith]

I need the full siblings name's before I can be coherent in my response.
Without them the task is impossible.

George

[pam]

Vercingetorix and L'ange Gabriel both out of Ocala Slew and Princesa Quil (Spend a Buck).
Thank you for your interest and time.
p

[George William Smith]

Hi Pam:
I thought for a moment that you had found a glitch in my program. However, the problem you have is very simply explained.

I put your stallion to the mare I raised named A Screen Classic and get a hypo pedigree score of 53.24. If I put him to Northern Sunset I get a score of 59.03. The problem of the low scores are that L'ange Gabriel only gets a default value because I did not analyze and he would not score well in Genetic Strength anyway because his race record is very poor and his sire is unraced another tragedy for a stallion.

Your mare, Vercingetorix put to a good stallion would give you a good score because afterall, a good stallion is sending lots of Genetic Strength into the pedigree. However, if you mate her to a young stallion without much of a race record or stud record you will get low scores just like her brother. My young stallion Cache In, even with his good race record, has no Stud Performance points and to your mare the score is only 54.76.

So you see, you are not working with much Genetic Strength with your stallion until he starts adding Genetic Strength in terms of the foals he produces. I am sorry to say that is not likely but strange things have happened in this business.

Hope that helps.

George

[pam]

Thank you for your time. You said pretty much what I figured, but what I noticed was how easy it is to raise the score through the stallion rather than the mare. I think it's going to be tough to find a match to bring up Gabe's score, and he'll never be able to match his sisters. Oh well. His babies will just have to prove who he is and what he's got.
Again, thank you.
p

[George William Smith]

Pam wrote: "I noticed was how easy it is to raise the score through the stallion rather than the mare."

That statement is not correct Pam. I just wanted to make sure you understood what I said. What is true is that it is hard for your stallion to raise the GSV of the mare's to whom he is bred because his Genetic Strength is so poor [limited starts, low earnings, unraced daddy]. Since almost any stallion mated to your mare would have more genetic strength than yours, that is why the GSV rises.

I hope he does what most stallions with his record and pedigree do not, and that is to be successful from such humble beginnings.

Good Luck,
George

[Roguelet]

Sorry to hijack this thread, but I have a question for George... I've been mulling over this for some time, and this thread just seems like a good place to come out and ask you, so you can clear up any misconceptions that I might have.

I've been reading about the GSV with some interest, but not really using it in my matings because I'm under the impression that it's mainly a tool for use with "higher level" horses, AKA not very useful in the smaller regional levels... is that fair to say or am I off base?

For example... MOST stallions that are VERY well bred and did VERY well on the track are in KY, FL, wherever... but certainly not in podunk little states with racing programs that are struggling to survive. So, to start with you either have not as popular pedigree or no race record... sometimes both.

Around here, a stallion may be considered very successful in his region if he gets to 20 mares! Of course, these 20 mares are not likely to be of Azeri quality, if you catch my drift. AND, the owners/trainers out here aren't as likely to have the resources that the higher dollar areas have to devote to the stallion's offspring... and the cycle continues. So, even though a young stallion might seem to have the potential to be a success regionally, his GSV would still be low and he would look pretty sad using your system... is that fair to say, or have I misconstrued the facts?

I'm more of a "visual" person... I can look at two horses and get an idea of whether I like the match or not, but as far as the nuances of pedigree research, I am not skilled... so speak slowly and clearly, please, so that I may understand!

[George William Smith]

Hi Madame Moderator:
I just spent an hour doing a reply to your post, using examples to show you that what you should be aiming at is raising the GSV not focusing on high scores. When I pushed Submit, it disappeared into cyberspace and I can find it nowhere.

I am so backed up with work that I am not going to compound my problem by trying another as I am so ticked off I want to scream even as I write this one because I know it can disappear too. A month ago I wrote a long piece for this site and it disappeared. So you can understand my anger.

In a nutshell what I was trying to say:
Mare A has a GSV of 58 in a regional area [normal].
Mated to a successful stallion and maybe the only successful stallion in the state you get a GSV of 57.30, but to another stallion who is a failure at stud and get a GSV of 63.2 does indicate to me that the successful stallion is not a very good pedigree fit since he is being well rewarded in his GRASP score for stud performance yet gives a score less than the failing stallion. In fact the failing stallion may be a good fit for this mare and that is what the GSV is showing even though the score is still not really high. Another unsuccessful stallion would give a GSV of 57.99, even though he has a pretty fashionable pedigree.

All things being equal, the GSV should be used to upgrade mares so that the foal's have stronger pedigrees than their dam. Moving from 58 to 59 is a positive move and may result in a significantly better horse even though its not 70.

Untested stallions give lower scores and are very risky except for known good producers who seem to match up with every stallion to whom they are bred since they do not have any Stud Performance points

I'm ticked because this is so incoherent to my other posting to you. Sorry but must get back to work and if this disappears I'll scream.
George

[madelyn]

George, it has happened to me. What happens is that your connection to the site times out. So when I want to write a considered answer, maybe take a coffee or lunch break in it, I draft it in a WP program like Wordpro or Word, and then cut and paste it into a query screen to submit it....

[George William Smith]

That makes perfect sense. Awww, now a huge sense of relief has swept over me. I'll try to give a better answer this morning now that I had a good nights sleep and my software is working.

Best, George

[Roguelet]

Oh, I can just imagine the steam that would be coming out of my ears if that had happened to me!

So, what I'm getting in a quick nutshell is two things for my lowly regional market.

One, I should be looking more at the mare's GSV and trying to raise her resulting foal's score, moreso than really looking at the stallion's GSV.

Two, I should be thinking more along the lines of the resulting foal's GSV and how that can be changed instead of concentrating on the GSV of the mare herself.

Am I at least on-base with these two statements? This already gives me a different perspective on the process... I was trying to just judge a stallion's score and thinking that he may not have a very good opportunity to develop a good score... Now I will switch gears and start considering the mare's GSV and her resulting foal's score, and we'll see where that gets me.

I'm looking forward to reading more once you get a chance to re-compose your notes.