duplicating the tail female family

[harperstown]

with all the pedigree advisers looking for "nicks" and inbreeding to superior ancestors ,why is it so rare to find mares being mated back to stallions originating from the same tail female family,- what are your views on mating a mare this way if you can bred her back to a stallion with the same 5th dam ?

[mary syers]

Old Arab taboo. Comes in with the first imported Arabians to this country. Never inbreed to your mare lines--produces unsoundness. This has persisted across time. As Arabians are easily the most inbred equine on the planet--maybe they knew something. Surely inbred arabs are sounder than inbred Tb. Mary Syers

[Bill from WA]

This strategy has been used many times with varying degrees of success.
Champion Numbered Account is one of the success stories, being by Buckpasser o/o Intriguing. Taking this pattern a step farther, her son Private Account, when bred back to his own female family (Mare Calda), produced the SW Held Accountable, tripling the female family influence.

Bill

[mary syers]

Has this type of inbreeding worked with lines other than La Troienne? Just curious. Mary Syers

[Bill from WA]

Hi

French Derby winner Cillas (Frizette). The Mr Prospector son, Down Deep (194-21-26-17), apparently no unsoundness there. Champion Steeplechaser Correggio (Thong). G1 stakes placed winner, Festival Hall (Thong), are a few. There are many more.

Bill

[harperstown]

thanks Bill , i also noticed the dam of machiavellian (coup de folie) is bred like this, although in her case it is the third dam almahmoud featuring in both lines.

[BJ]

This strategy has been used many times with varying degrees of success.
Champion Numbered Account is one of the success stories, being by Buckpasser o/o Intriguing. Taking this pattern a step farther, her son Private Account, when bred back to his own female family (Mare Calda), produced the SW Held Accountable, tripling the female family influence.

Bill

Also Top Account

[Derring]

with all the pedigree advisers looking for "nicks" and inbreeding to superior ancestors ,why is it so rare to find mares being mated back to stallions originating from the same tail female family,- what are your views on mating a mare this way if you can bred her back to a stallion with the same 5th dam ?

I would take a closer look at what the mare in that 5th generation accomplished--was she a superior runner or a superior broodmare (or both)?

[Elusive City]

with all the pedigree advisers looking for "nicks" and inbreeding to superior ancestors ,why is it so rare to find mares being mated back to stallions originating from the same tail female family,- what are your views on mating a mare this way if you can bred her back to a stallion with the same 5th dam ?

Quite the opposite for us. We are strong believers in "formula one" breeding. 2 of our 3 foals are line breed via tail female line and one in the oven is too (due 4/1/06).

Didn't seem to bother the good sire Quiet American any.

[Pete]

Hi Folks,

The three most important daughters of Almahmoud; Natalma, Cosmah and Bubbling Beauty have been crosed many times with mixed success.

Bubbling Beauty hasn't crossed well at all and Cosmah began to work in more recent years (when further back in the pedigree), usually through Halo.

More notable is Danehill a product of crossing Natalma (3x3) sire line to dam line. The cross is between Northern Dancer and his 1/2 sister, Spring Adieu, (by Buckpasser). The position of the cross is preferred and the Northern Dancer / Buckpasser affinity is well documented (I have 7 SWs from 20 foals including El Gran Senor and Dance Number).

Outcrosses (through 4 generations) outperform inbreeding by a few percent but when creating a breeding you need to take every edge you can. I only advise inbreeding when there's a compelling reason to do so.

On another thread I advised using Ascot Knight, crossing full sisters in the 2nd and 3rd generation. The profile of the mating was still an outcross (by percentage) and the stallion made sense in this case.

There are examples like Quiet American and especially Herbager's dam, Flagette, who is 2x2 Firdaussi (sire and dam are by the same sire), but they are the exception.

Whenever you see a successful mating you need to investigate if this is the exception or potential and that's more important when inbreeding.

Many people point to the amount of inbreeding and linebreeding of horses in the past but it should be remembered that there was a smaller base of ancestors and less ability to transport horses for breeding. With the proliferation of Northern Dancer (especially Storm Cat close in pedigrees) and Mr. Prospector I'd err on the side of caution.

If your potential stallion hasa proven record, look at the pedigrees of his horses, both successful and not. There's probably some consistency in blood that you can evaluate.

Regards,

Pete

[LaTroienne]

Often a smart idea. Depends on how far back, though. Numbered Account is an example of how it works (La Troienne tail-female up and down). It really helps if it's a superior broodmare....

[UK Breeder (19)]

Yes I was about to mention Danehill, Orpen etc.

Alexander Goldrun, who has won 4 Gr.1 races in four countries, in 3 contients, is by Gold Away. Gold Away's sire, Goldneyev, is out of the mare, Gold River.
Alexander Goldrun's 4th dam, Gracious is half sister to Gold River. So this seems to have worked.
Note Gold River won the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe, one of only a handful of mares to do so. She was also France's Champion older mare

[harperstown]

well right or wrong ,we did it anyway and the feisty little fella is two weeks old and terrorising his mam.
though a bit small at birth (he is a first foal) he looks pretty correct and we are very pleased with him, just wish this biting north easterly wind would go away so we can get him out on the grass.