Horses and Names

[helen in FL]

It takes a risk for a breeder to put their name on the back of a horse. Especially if they don't come out nice. As an example Gwen puts her name on every single one of her foals regardless of what they are going to do and I seriously respect that. We have heard of so many breeders who have denied a foal from their program because they didn't come out how they wanted. It's really about name recognition and it is so common in Europe we've all accepted it and I find it foolish to deny it because such a huge market in North America comes from those horses specifically.

It seems to me like one would be trying to take credit for the breeder's work of a horse that is very possibly fourth generation of their program. In example Mirabeau GF is registered as such, he is approved as such, he should be advertised as such. How many breeders put K at the end of their Popeye K foals? It's the same thing.

Karakorum farm puts their name in all of their race horses and I instantly know it's a horse from their stable/breeding program when I see it on TVG. Beautiful thing about JC is once a horse enters a race they are no longer allowed to change the name. Didn't Silver Creek have something like five USEF numbers for Silver Lining after they bought him? He was really successfully shown and campaigned but it seems every time he changed owners he changed name.

This is not directed at any members in particular but they did provide the perfect opportunity.

[TrueColours]

Helen - I agree 1000% as I mentioned before ...

We have the same situation up here with the "VDL" designation for VDL bred horses - no matter WHO ends up with them afterwards, they are forevermore known as "VDL" Something, such as VDL Navarone, VDL Ulando, VDL Windsor, etc and all of their show ring successes, advertising material, registration - you name it - is all prefaced with "VDL". And EVERYONE respects that and it goes forward with them until they die ...

The same as the "Z" line stallions with Zangersheide:

http://www.zangersheide.com/en/

Everything produced within that program gets the "Z" designation and I thought this was a very interesting write up on their page as well:

"Z" is a quality label of world fame! You, too, can profit from this imago which gives surpluss value to your products. The DNA-testing to which all foals are submitted makes that owners can fully rely on the authenticity of the horse's papers. You can also gain financially when your products excell at our events or anywhere else in the sport. We do not leave our breeders standing out in the cold. Our successful auctions with professional promotion and marketing will open the door for you to get a good price for your foals. Top-foals go at top-prices!

This makes SO much sense to me from a marketing and sales perspective! (which is pretty well 100% what my background is ... )

If you have put the time, the hours, the thought and expertise and the sweat into putting the very best product you can out into the marketplace, by then further stamping it with the letters designating your farm, you are building a brand year after year, foal after foal and *IF* people respect your breeding program, they will instantly identify and recognize those symbols to stand for a quality product. It simply states "I am VERY proud of what I have created. So much so that I am willing to put my name on this foal!"

It never hit home Helen until I read your thread and then went onto the Zangersheide website to read and then it pretty well smacked me upside of the head. If you are truly proud of what you produce and you want the world to KNOW that is your product, you stamp it so indelibly that people know as soon as they see the initials that it is a product of your breeding program

Really and truly - going forward - every single foal that I produce and name will have the "TCF" initials attached to it so when I have retired out of this business several years down the road I sincerely hope that people will recognize, respect and appreciate what I spent many years creating

And now - more than ever - I can truly appreciate where Gwen is coming from in her concerns and why it has upset her SO much even years later when buyers of her foals choose to drop those letters without any further thought and in doing so, offer her the ultimate disrespect ...

Thanks for starting this thread. Until you did so and I looked further on my own, I sympathized with Gwen but didnt fully appreciate why she was as upset as she is ...

[BlazingColours]

In example Mirabeau GF is registered as such, he is approved as such, he should be advertised as such.

Correction... I just looked at Mirabeau's papers, because I wanted to know what was on them as I never really look at them. On his registration papers there is NO NAME at all. Yes, NO name. He was not named when he was registered. He is listed with RPSI as Mirabeau and his showing/competition passport says Mirabeau. So there is no where that he is registered with any initials on his name.

All of Mirabeau foals that I produce, I start their names with MIR. I want people to know the foal is by Mirabeau when they read the name. That is my marketing plan and has been like that from day one! But there are times when I have sold a foal and the new owner has changed the name. They bought the horse and they are going to be paying bills on that horse for the net 20+ years. So I would never be upset with the new owners or say that they do not repect my program because they want a different name. That is silly... IMO. Of course they respect my breeding program; they bought a horse from me didn't they...

[Galileo1998]

How many breeders put K at the end of their Popeye K foals? It's the same thing.

It's actually pretty far from the same thing. The K at the end of Popeye's name stands for HIS breeder Peter Karneef, any offspring of Popeye's that have the K in their name, unless bred by Peter are not showing "respect" to the breeder, they are showing a connection to the stallion.

[helen in FL]

It's actually pretty far from the same thing. The K at the end of Popeye's name stands for HIS breeder Peter Karneef, any offspring of Popeye's that have the K in their name, unless bred by Peter are not showing "respect" to the breeder, they are showing a connection to the stallion.

Which is the other side of the spectrum. I honestly never knew what the K stood for but I knew the second I saw a horse with a K name it was a PK foal if it was in the US. Isn't Carolyn doing the RHF designation for her foals? RFF of course, VDL, Zangersheide, and I am raking my brain as to what other farms are out there... Lazy J... Little Bit Farm... Hilltop... But those are the only ones coming to mind.
Much like the warmbloods doing the first letter of the sire's name for the foal, but rather knowing which sire line the foal comes from you know which farm the foal comes from. My dutch mare I bought this year is one of a handful by her sire out there. I believe he was gravely under used but it was easy to find her breeder because of this. She was the first person I called to find out about this mare. I lucked out.

April I understand your side of it but in the nature of this horse business there is no guarantee that those who buy your foals are going to keep them the rest of their lives. What happens if one of them falls into bad hands? Or a buyer down the road SO loves them they want another? It would be easy to find with a BCF designation with a little bit of asking. The GF name has pretty much become synonymous with Dilute Warmbloods in North America much like Art Deco is the father of Pinto Warmbloods. Isn't Liz doing the SF designation as well?

I'm just thinking about if you run into a scenario like Barb over at SCSH. Someone buys a gorgeous Mir baby, changes the name with your blessing then sells at five or six, that owner doesn't like the name, changes it and campaigns it to the top shows and falls into the six figure sales flip ring. Next thing you know the horse finds a forever home with lets say an Ammie housewife who just adores it and wants another like it. Because Ammie owner heard it was by some famous stallion and there are plenty of full brothers and sisters.

Now let's say the name never changed and you put BCF on the end... She goes on COTH to ask about this "BCF" at the end of the name of her palomino warmblood... Oh yeah that has to be one of April's foals because she is Blazing Colours Farm and she breeds those colored horses!

I just had this happen with a pony I sold. She is registered FPBA with one name, bought and given another, sold to me with one different from that and then I just found out her name was changed again by the person I sold her to. But she also came from a small FL pony farm.

My question is if you have this stallion from one of the most reputable colored warmblood breeders world wide, why wouldn't you want to let people know that you have him? Like Zangersheide says, it can bring a LOT of desired business because people will follow the name and Canada is a LOT closer for the US breeders than Germany (sorry Gwen!). By denying Mir the GF at the end of his name (nevermind what his registration says) you are saying it's okay for someone to say you never bred a foal they bought from a person who bought from you or you directly.

[pfrsue]

Much like the warmbloods doing the first letter of the sire's name for the foal,

Except for Trakehners, who use the first letter of the dam's name.

As an aside, prefixes are extremely common in the Morgan Horse Association. That's another case where the instant recognition factor of a prefix can tell a prospective buyer/breeder exactly what sort of bloodlines and type a certain horse is likely to have, and if it hails from a quality breeding program. If I remember right, Arabian breeders often use prefixes too.

[accphotography]

Oh yes. The MEMC is immediately recognizable in Morgans and I always take a second look when I see MEMC.

[BlazingColours]

And I understand what you are saying Helen. There was one horse I sold and it ended up in a bad situation. The vet who had the horse googled the barn name she knew him by and used his color in the search and voila... she came to my site and called me. I paid the outstanding vet bill on him and now he is mine again. So really for a situation like that all someone has to do is google some things about the horse and it will come up. As for the ammy owner wanting another and not knowing where to find a full sibling... all that person would have to do is google palomino warmblood and I would come up. Search the year the horse was born and that person will find the horse on my foals page. Does not matter what the horses name is. The owner should have the horses papers and I would be listed as the breeder on there. On any of the WB's I breed if someone contacted the RPSI (because of the brand on the hip they know the horse was inspected with RPSI) and gave the horses age along with the number on the hip; they could tell the owner who the horse is and who the breeder was. I simply do not like initials before or after a name. Just do not like it. I have used BCF on a few Thoroughbreds I bred just so I could get the name I want. If the name is available without me having to use the BCF, that would be my first choice!

And no Silverwood does not do that or did not when I purchased Arts Aero. When I purchased Arts Aero he had a different name. Liz called him April's Apex, no joke, he had my name. She had NO issues at all with me changing his name to Arts Aero. Liz (Silverwood) is listed on the registration papers as the breeder and that, IMO, is where a breeder should be.

It is not that I do not want people to know where Mirabeau came from... I tell people who his breeder is and that I imported him as a foal. I simply do not like that in a name. It is my horse and my choice what I use as his name. It bothers me that someone thinks they can tell me what name I should call my horse.

I would like to see someone try that in the Thoroughbred racing world. LMAO... Anyone can change a horses name until the Thoroughbred has raced which is usually two years old. And name changing happens ALL the time! None of those breeders take offence to it.

[helen in FL]

A lot of the time they do do bloodline names so you can get an idea of who the sire/dam was. Plus there are farm names ALL over the welshes. I see Otterridge, Smoke Tree, Farnley, Land's End... Same thing with the Morgan's, I am given a better idea of what I am getting.

[accphotography]

And Minis.

[HeadlessHorseman]

The Dutch DO LETTERS....This year is "F"

My papers have names....BUT I was told they are really JUST A NUMBER...

I could have just misunderstood....WHICH would NOT be the first time....

HH

[LB]

I've bred both horses and dogs for 30+ years and I've been on both sides of this question numerous times.

If you want to be able to dictate an animal's name for its entire life for Pete's sake just KEEP IT. Otherwise it's up to the owner to choose a name that pleases them.

As for referencing a breeding program: hopefully over time a program will attain such stature that new owners are proud to add the prefix or initial suffix to the name--because it enhances the value of the animal. Until that time...well...add me to those who find initials tacky.

[Crystal]

THe JC does keep track of name changes. If you check under registration status you can see the names that were submitted with the horse, obviously which was chosen, or if the name was changed. Not many breeders pay that much attention to a name change because they can track the foal with Fasttrax. But I dont know about other breeds as much. If the papers dont go with the horse, and there isnt a tat or brand how does someone even KNOW if the horse is registered.

[belambi]

Do you guys still brand?.. Its the easiest option, and quite simply, I believe much better than naming..I allow owners to name horses which we sell whatever they like.. people will find out who bred it etc if they need to. There are many prefixes now that I avoid because I know they are not something that I am even slightly interested in , so it works both ways!

having bred a zanger foal last year I do use the 'Z' on the name since one was bred specifically to sell !
http://www.australiancolouredperformanc ... PAGE_id=14

[accphotography]

People CAN brand, but most don't. I personally think branding is a good idea and wish more people would.