JC Papers and colour DNA

[Clover]

I wonder if anyone can help please? I do not generally breed TBs for registering with the JC so I am more familiar with the WB and AQHA societies registering processes.

I have a TB foal of an unusual colour. I made the Live Foal Report on the day the foal was born and I requested (and was approved) a name claim. I keep looking on the JC site and it says the registration is pending - does it really take the JC 3 or 4 months to get papers and DNA kits out to you?

I contacted the JC this morning and asked all my questions but they just sent the link from the website. They did mention that the DNA kit only does parentage and not colour, so do I need to do a separate DNA test for colour somewhere else to prove the foal is the colour claimed? Or do the JC just accept the colour you register the foal as?

The foal is sold but obviously will remain with me till weaning and I am anxious to get the JC registration papers so as to transfer ownership to the new owner.

Any advice/help very much appreciated.

[TrueColours]

Hi Clover

Yes - it will be 3-4 months before the kit comes in the mail and it has nothing to do with their colour either ... my plain bay guy by Alumni Hall took just as long as my wild coloured ones!

You will have 2 colour choices and its up to you which one you chose to go with

Based on the "look" of your foal, you can register as "white" (which is what the JC will push for to be honest) or you can get the DNA tests done and push to register it as the actual base coat colour (which will probably be a struggle). Or - the JC will push to register it as "grey/roan" even though you dont have a grey/roan parent involved

Remember that my perlino is registered as "palomino" and my smoky cream will also be registered as "palomino" and buckskins are registered as "bay"

So there you go. Isnt the JC so much fun to deal with?!

[KBEquine]

Canadian Kid's JC papers say chestnut, so his palomino offspring look like there's something wrong with the pedigree.

Back in 1990, the JC just didn't recognize palomino as a color at all.

[Derby Lyn]

We definately need pictures to be able to answer your question

[Jorge]

We definately need pictures to be able to answer your question

I agree with Derby Lyn. Please feel free to do so and we will try to assist you as much as possible. Better if you include the immediate pedigree.

[Clover]

Thank you for reassuring me that I haven't done anything wrong, lol! I am just not familiar with breed registries taking this long to process foals.

The little girl in question is white and she is a little star that we will miss very much but her new home is going to be fantastic so I am very happy.

Not sure if these photos will come up but here goes I'll give it a try. No I can't get the photos to show but here is the urls for them.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/43844686@N08/4726196330/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/43844686@N08/4726194502/

[Clover]

Just one other thing; I made the Live Foal Report back in April and completed payment details etc. does that mean that the JC automatically send the DNA kit or do I have to actually apply for it? Sorry to sound a bit dim but the instructions on the JC website are a bit vague for those of us not in the know.

[TrueColours]

It will come to you automatically once you file the Live Foal Report whether you have paid or not

So - who is the VERY lucky new owner of her?!

[Jorge]

I have a TB foal of an unusual colour.

If the foal comes from a pair of solid colored immediate parents then he has an unusual color. If he is coming from a "stained white" parent or a horse like Airdrie Apache ("marked chestnut"), then he is a "run-of-the-mill" product. Seems like he was sired by one of the aforementioned choices. Would like to know about his immediate pedigree.

[Clover]

Thanks Donna for giving me a good run-down on the process, much appreciated. She is going to a small private home.

Jorge - the filly's colour was not totally unexpected, although it still surprised me as I was expecting a bay! Here is her pedigree; http://www.pedigreequery.com/perfectly+puchi

[xfactor fan]

Nothing proven at this point, but I'm seeing some connection between black coat color (aa or non-bay) and full expression of Dominant White. Your filly clearly got the DW chromosome #3 from Chet DT via Puchilingui. And with a black mare, who is aa, the filly has at least one a.

Now before folks start jumping up and down and frothing at the mouth.

I don't believe that there is some cosmic connection between black and white, some kind of natural balance of Yin and Yang.

Yes they are two different genes, on two different chromosomes. The coat color has nothing to do with expression. My guess at this point is that there is something on the same chromosome as the recessive version of bay (aa) that acts as a "boost" to the expression of DW.

The expression of DW has a huge range of variation from Pinto/Paint like markings (Sato) to Stained White like Chet DT himself to full expression like your new filly.

If you take a look at the pedigrees of the Painted Desert horses, most of the full White ones have pedigrees that suggest they might be carrying at least one copy of (a). So this is not exclusive to Puchilingui, as the Painted Desert Horses are from Airedre Apache (who is DW, just not a version that has been identified.).

Science often start with someone looking at a result and saying "Huh that's odd"

[Linda_d]

We definately need pictures to be able to answer your question

SOME posters live vicariously through photos of boldly colored TBs!!!

[Jessi P]

Xfactor - is that anything similar to the "affinity" I have noticed in some families to have a strong preference for the majority of horses to be dark bay/brown or gray? Off the top of my head is Ruffian's family - here are her siblings.

Buckfinder dk b/brn
Icecapade gr
Laughter gr
Near East gr
On to Glory gr
Ruffian dk b/brn
(not sure if this is a complete list - I pulled it off the DB)

Buckfinder and Ruffian were very very dark, almost black in color.

Then if we look at Laughters offspring we have:

Blue Ensign gr
Dover Ridge gr
Dress Ship gr
Drollery gr
Laughing Look b
Laughters Last b
Light of Foot gr
Light Spirits dk b/brn
Private Terms dk/b/brn Another almost black fellow
Raspberry Ridge gr
Steel Maiden gr

Again, not sure if this is a complete list, but we have 7 grays 2 dk b/brn and 2 bays.

If you take a look at the progeny of Private Terms the vast majority are dark bay/brn like he is - of course since he is not gray himself the dam would have to be a gray for the gray to be expressed.

Anyway, this is just something I have noticed - that in certain families you have that dark bay or brown, almost black, like Ruffian, and also a large number of grays. Im just wondering if that might be at all related to what you are talking about or if it just means that along with the dark bay or browns that look almost black there have been a large number of grays in the family and that it is coincidence that those two colors vastly outnumbered the plain bays or chestnuts. What do you think?

[accphotography]

Well it's been proven that black bases actually SUPPRESS white... well, sabino white. DW could be different. Black certainly doesn't suppress splash. But I just wanted to say that I've seen HORDES of red based LOUD or entirely white DWs. *shrugs*

[RiddleMeThis]

there have actually been a few studies showing that E bases show less white than e bases and a's show less than As. So imo any horses with a who happens to be louder than average has something else going on not related to a.