Thoroughbreds more closely related to draft horses

[brogers]

Interesting mtDNA study on thoroughbreds that was released today. The study relates to mtDNA, the dna that is passed from mother to daughter (it goes to the son but he doesn't pass it on) allowing scientists to classify horses based on their mtDNA haplotype.

http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org/ ... .0800.full

The discussion point is:
Our data demonstrates that Thoroughbred foundation mares were of cosmopolitan European heritage, with contributions from British and Irish Native and Oriental horses. The contribution from British and Irish Native horses is close to twice that of Oriental horses. This British Native maternal influence, is apparent in the current Thoroughbred population, e.g. 2009 Kentucky Derby winner, Mine That Bird, probably has British Native maternal origins, since his founding matriarch, Piping Peg's Dam, foaled in 1690, is Clade C1 based on the haplotype of her direct female descendents (Clade C1 is strongly associated with British Native breeds: Fisher's exact test p < 0.000001).

Additional foundation mares came from European horse populations, although we cannot determine precisely which. Our data show a contribution from Barb mares. However, Barb horses have undergone extensive crossbreeding with European horses, including Iberian breeds [23]. Thoroughbred affinity to Barbs may, therefore, reflect this crossbreeding rather than an original contribution. The majority of Thoroughbreds belong to Clade D (55%), previously reported as being associated with Iberian horses [24]. Yet, Clade D is frequent among European horse populations (31%) and thus, we cannot delineate a contribution to Thoroughbred foundation mares from Iberian breeds as opposed to one from European horse breeds as a whole.

By contrast, Oriental mares made a limited contribution to Thoroughbred maternal lineages with a minimal contribution from Arabs. Thoroughbred foundation mares, therefore, most likely represent a cross-section of female bloodstock available at each stud participating in the foundation of the breed. While influential Thoroughbred breeders may still claim Thoroughbreds as purely Oriental (specifically Arab), our results argue strongly against this claim.

If this study is showing that records of the female lineage of the thoroughbred is drastically different to what it actually is, one can only guess how many errors there are in more recent history.

[xfactor fan]

Not exactly.

What it means is that there weren't a whole lot of Arabian mares that made contributions to the TB gene pool, proving Lady Wentworth wrong.

Think of it this way. The British have been into horses for thousands of years. Any good horse that showed up was cherished and added to the gene pool. At some point there was selection for type- running vs draft for example. Both populations would have drawn on local horses, and given historical European horse breeding practices, they would have "upgraded" their stock by stallion selection.

At some point selection from this common gene pool created the breeds that were to become TB and Shires.

mtDNA traces genetic material outside the nucleus--genetic material not on the chromosomes--and reflects ancient maternal origin. So the study proves that TB's and Shires shared a common maternal origin. Think very distant cousins, rather than siblings.

Thanks for the link to the paper, I saw the Australian article, but hadn't had a chance to look for the actual paper itself.

[Tappiano]

That explains why Cahill Road looks like one

[diomed]

Myself and many of my fellow TB heritage nuts have figured this for years now. That the female families of the TB are from their native land, including the "royal" mares that Wentworth claimed were from pure eastern descent.
We always knew her claims were a crock! LOL.

[xfactor fan]

Lady Wentworth, for those who don't know was a major player in the Arabian breed. She loved the desert horses, and wrote a book about TB's claiming that all the foundation mares were of oriental blood. Such was her reputation that this was accepted as fact for many years.

Earlier studies on mtDNA started to unravel this perception, and this study seems to have put the nail in the coffin.


Like Diomed, I've always thought the Wentworth theory was suspect. If it was true, why don't Anglo-Arabs look more like TB's?

[Bast]

Lady Wentworth, for those who don't know was a major player in the Arabian breed. She loved the desert horses, and wrote a book about TB's claiming that all the foundation mares were of oriental blood. Such was her reputation that this was accepted as fact for many years.

Earlier studies on mtDNA started to unravel this perception, and this study seems to have put the nail in the coffin.


Like Diomed, I've always thought the Wentworth theory was suspect. If it was true, why don't Anglo-Arabs look more like TB's?

After looking at lots of photos of Turkic-bred horses, I reached the same conclusion, BUT from personal experience, not all Arabians are fluffy little slugs.

Most Arabians in the middle east were killed in the Wahhabi wars, and the modern Arab is based almost entirely upon animals brought out of Egypt (bred mostly for looks for generations, with a handful of stables selecting for speed), Poland (bred for a variety of reasons), and a handful of other sources after those wars. I'm guessing that the best stock was slaughtered in the 1800s, and what we have today may not represent what the best of the breed may have been, and the Arabian component in the TB may have been of higher quality than the (generally) fluffy horse known today.

I raced two Arabian mares in the early 1980s. One was a 14 hand grey with the ego of a 17 hand TB (indeed, she later bossed a bunch of hunter-jumper mares). Her sire had raced and won in Egypt (I have win photos from Alexandria and Cairo), as had his male line for 4 generations to the desert. She had a powerful hind end rarely seen in the breed, and she was very game and competitive; Barb Livingston rode her. I have photos of Pat Day galloping her at Arlington. Really.

She was well-proportioned and when taken among TBs, was assumed to be one of them, a yearling.

So, there may be some Arab blood in the TB--and it may not have been a bad thing.

[diomed]

Bast, nobody said the Arab blood in the TB was a bad thing. lol.
I think it's the perception that the TB was founded by mostly Arab blood that is a myth. The TB is actually a mutt among breeds during it's origin.
Turk, Barb, Arab, Spanish(Barb founded).
The Arabian horse has many fine qualities and I think much of that has been transmitted in the genuineness and gameness you see on the track.
The speed, IMO comes from the Native British horse, that derived from the hobbies and galloways(a lot of Barb base).
If you ask me, the fact that it ties with the Iberian horses just makes sense based on the historical publications.

[Bast]

I think it's the perception that the TB was founded by mostly Arab blood that is a myth. The TB is actually a mutt among breeds during it's origin.

But what a MUTT!!!!

[Linda_d]

Lady Wentworth, for those who don't know was a major player in the Arabian breed. She loved the desert horses, and wrote a book about TB's claiming that all the foundation mares were of oriental blood. Such was her reputation that this was accepted as fact for many years.

Earlier studies on mtDNA started to unravel this perception, and this study seems to have put the nail in the coffin.


Like Diomed, I've always thought the Wentworth theory was suspect. If it was true, why don't Anglo-Arabs look more like TB's?

After looking at lots of photos of Turkic-bred horses, I reached the same conclusion, BUT from personal experience, not all Arabians are fluffy little slugs.

Most Arabians in the middle east were killed in the Wahhabi wars, and the modern Arab is based almost entirely upon animals brought out of Egypt (bred mostly for looks for generations, with a handful of stables selecting for speed), Poland (bred for a variety of reasons), and a handful of other sources after those wars. I'm guessing that the best stock was slaughtered in the 1800s, and what we have today may not represent what the best of the breed may have been, and the Arabian component in the TB may have been of higher quality than the (generally) fluffy horse known today.

I raced two Arabian mares in the early 1980s. One was a 14 hand grey with the ego of a 17 hand TB (indeed, she later bossed a bunch of hunter-jumper mares). Her sire had raced and won in Egypt (I have win photos from Alexandria and Cairo), as had his male line for 4 generations to the desert. She had a powerful hind end rarely seen in the breed, and she was very game and competitive; Barb Livingston rode her. I have photos of Pat Day galloping her at Arlington. Really.

She was well-proportioned and when taken among TBs, was assumed to be one of them, a yearling.

So, there may be some Arab blood in the TB--and it may not have been a bad thing.

Last winter, someone on this site or on the All Breed site posted some pix or a link to pix of race-bred Arabs from France, I think. They did NOT look like "fluffy" Arabs like we see today, either.

What this article is debunking is Wentworth's myth about Arab mares being the basis of the female side of the TB pedigree.

[Bast]

Last winter, someone on this site or on the All Breed site posted some pix or a link to pix of race-bred Arabs from France, I think. They did NOT look like "fluffy" Arabs like we see today, either.

Which they should not resemble; they've been selected for speed for more than a dozen generations.

[Shammy Davis]

They had a Arabs stakes race at Keenland on Saturday. From a TV perspective, I couldn't make out much difference between the Arabs and Thoroughbreds that raced that day. The Arab contingent looked like racehorses and ran as such. I was very impressed.

I had really never thought much about the TB mare lines, but had just assumed that they were sturdy working stock.

[Bast]

They had a Arabs stakes race at Keenland on Saturday. From a TV perspective, I couldn't make out much difference between the Arabs and Thoroughbreds that raced that day. The Arab contingent looked like racehorses and ran as such. I was very impressed.

I had really never thought much about the TB mare lines, but had just assumed that they were sturdy working stock.

The winner Grilla is an interesting mix of bloodlines.

The sire is of French racing lines, the dam a blend of Polish, Egyptian, and the damline traces to American racing lines going back 40+ years in Nevada, developed by one of the early founders of Arabian racing in this country. I visited their farm in 1988, when Nusabre was still alive. They had splendid looking horses, with great shoulders and legs. Nice to see old families still running.

Looks like the only horse of purely French breeding finished last.

[vineyridge]

I've got a book that discusses the history of the modern arab. It's got an interesting quote, which I will type after I find the book. "Modern" meaning that it was created in Egypt starting in the late 13th century from Turkic roots.

[Shammy Davis]

I've always associated the dished face w/Arabs, yet, from my TV perspective, I noted that none of the Keenland runners appeared to have it.

I've been to a number of Arab shows and that facial characteristic was the first thing that caught my attention. Small heads was the other.

[Bast]

I've always associated the dished face w/Arabs, yet, from my TV perspective, I noted that none of the Keenland runners appeared to have it.

I've been to a number of Arab shows and that facial characteristic was the first thing that caught my attention. Small heads was the other.

There are people who breed for heads to the exclusion of everything else.

There are people who breed for the whole horse. The point of Arabian racing is to provide a motivation for something beyond lead and feed and pretty heads.