Beaten by the Racetrack Surface

General racing discussion.

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kimberley mine
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Postby kimberley mine » Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:55 pm

Whirlaway wrote:Her career-high 112 Beyers Figure in that race is tied with Saint Liam for 2nd lowest in the races's 26 year history.


That's nice. I hope you don't base your handicapping career on what Andy Beyer says. You'll go away holding a lot of worthless tickets.

How many track records has she equaled or set? Say zero; zilch; nada; none.


If your definition of "phenomenal horse" is equaling or setting track records, that means Invasor, Holy Bull, Sunline, Seattle Slew, Sunday Silence, Winning Colors, Lady's Secret, and Personal Ensign were not phenomenal horses.

I see a three-time champion older mare, who, in her career, handily disposed of the 2009 champion older HORSE, 2009 champion 3yo colt, 2007 and 2008 champion Canadian mares, 2009 Japanese champion dirt horse, 2010 Jockey Club Gold Cup and Woodward Stakes, 2009 Kentucky and Santa Anita Derby winners, 2009 BC Ladies Classic winner, and nine other Gr-1 winning fillies, along with about a dozen other very good colts. That's a pretty phenomenal horse.

Oh yeah, she broke the stakes record for the El Encino stakes in 2008.


"She finally decided the hell with it and went on. She ran the last quarter in 23 4/5. Horse don't run last quarters in 23 and change when they don't handle the track. This argument is preposterous."

Is that time correct? Doubtful you have reviewed the official chart . . .


You expose your ignorance here, as well as insult Zinn. The official chart does NOT list the split times of individual runners. The official chart lists the split time made by the first horse to cross a particular marker. If the first horse past the quarter pole was Old Sparky, and Old Sparky ran the last quarter in 24 flat, and Coo Coo Ca Choo was six lengths behind old Sparky at the quarter pole and finished second to him by a head at the wire, then Coo Coo Ca Choo HAD to run that last quarter faster than 24 flat. The chart will only list Old Sparky's time.

That is what happened with Zenyatta yesterday. You can pull up the race on YouTube, mark the time she starts her big run, mark the finish time, and then do a bit of basic maths (V = d * t).

It is my opinion the main reason they didn't make all those trips is because she would have been beaten; why tarnish an unblemished record? Horses have been shipped cross country, cross oceans since there was horse racing . . . The lethal injection seems kind of extreme when one can use a tranquilizer.


It is MY opinion that they were trying to keep her streak alive, and they did a cracking good job at it.

As far as lethal injections and tranquilizers, stop and think about why that syringe is on board. What happens when you get a shipping colic? It happens, and it's darn tricky to deal with at 30,000 feet. If you get a really bad colic on a 6-hour flight from San Diego to New York, a down-and-thrashing or twisted gut, you're screwed. You can't stop mid-flight to get somebody to the clinic. And, ironically, the use of tranquilizers in horses is similar to vicodin in people...they can slow down or temporarily paralyze the gut, which makes the likelihood of colic higher. If you have a horse truly go batshit mid-air, there is no tranquilizer on this planet that will calm them down that the handlers can administer safely. That little syringe of the blue dream is there for a bloody good reason, and everybody on that flight hopes they'll never, ever need to use it.

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Postby louis finochio » Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:59 pm

QR & Blame are FB, most all FB cant take their races too close together. As there Intense Inbreeding takes its toll on their hybrid vigor, which means they will run on E until they catch there breath. Trainers that dont give them enough time between races willpay the price.
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Whirlaway
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Postby Whirlaway » Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:59 pm

Quite the imagination . . .
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pfrsue
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Postby pfrsue » Mon Nov 08, 2010 4:34 pm

I think Whirlaway saw an entirely different race than the rest of us, and is so enamored of his/her opinion that she/he is living in some sort of alternate reality.

While I'm not making accusations, the definition of an internet troll is: someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

Unintentionally or not, I think this is the direction that this, and other similar threads have been going in.

I truly believe that Zenyatta's game but losing effort in this year's Breeders Cup Classic was one of the finest examples of heart, guts, class and athleticism that any of us (save one) have ever seen. Whirlaway disagrees and apparently has an entirely different criteria of what makes a successful racehorse. Maybe it's best to let it drop there.

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Postby TJ » Mon Nov 08, 2010 4:44 pm

The mile fraction was 1:37 final time was 2:02.1. Last 1/4, 25.1....Blame made up 1 length, his last 1/4 was 25.0, Zenyatta made up 6 lengths for a final 1/4 in 24.0, TJ

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Postby Bast » Mon Nov 08, 2010 5:30 pm

Whirlaway wrote:The lethal injection seems kind of extreme when one can use a tranquilizer.


Obviously you have never dealt with a horse in full panic mode in a confined space.

They're big, strong animals, and when they lose it, a little tranquilizer won't bring them back to earth. Pumped full of enough downer to calm an elephant, a frantic horse can still be on its feet and thrashing. I've seen it. I've dealt with it.

Jet aircraft look substantial, but they're relatively frail aluminum tubes. The last thing you want is a hyper horse digging through the floor to the aircraft control cables, or kicking at the inner fuselage wall OR kicking the other horses.

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Sysonby
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Postby Sysonby » Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:16 pm

Death by pilot is almost what happened to Forli when he came from Argentina. The plane encountered turbulence; Forli thrashed and the groom was told that he either got him under control immediately or the horse would be euthanized. Fortunately for TB breeding Forli was successfully tranquilized.

Unfortunately my source didn't make it on the Internet but I'm pretty sure it was from a Bloodhorse article in the late 70s when they interviewed the longtime resident vet at Claiborne in a series of articles. I was struck how big a change the loss of a major stallion can be.

As for opinionated folks, they are a dime a dozen online but I so want to ask the overbearing sneering ones what success they've had that they feel they can be so rude. I'm sure there is a law of inverse relationship just waiting to be discovered. It can take it's place next to Godwin's law as an Internet rule.

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Postby zinn21 » Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:28 pm

Tuc wrote:

She din't handle it early. She was stumbling thu the surface.


She was uncomfortable due to the kickback not the track. Mike confirmed this already.

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Postby Tucumcari » Mon Nov 08, 2010 7:04 pm

Warch the race early and she is too far back for kick back. She didn't handle the surface early on. You may choose to beieve what you like.
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kimberley mine
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Postby kimberley mine » Mon Nov 08, 2010 7:17 pm

Sysonby wrote:Death by pilot is almost what happened to Forli when he came from Argentina.


And the implicit message in the story of why Ribot stayed at Darby Dan is that he was too unpredictable and dangerous to safely transport by air.

This is how horses fly: http://www.instoneair.com/pages/rigid_airstable.html

Another factor in why Zenyatta didn't ship often--look at her owners and her trainer. Sheiriffs doesn't like to ship often, and while the detention barn was still in effect in NY he wouldn't ship his horses there at all. The Mosses live in California and presumably like watching their pride and joy race. Why should they send their prize filly to the other side of the country when they could run her at home?

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TJ
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Postby TJ » Tue Nov 09, 2010 5:48 am

In addition to many of the thoughts being posted....there is the underlying issue of the synthetic track....and I don't mean the obvious one.....the stigma attached to Z for racing primarily over the synthetics. Had her home track been dirt we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Many more GRI and GrII winners from the east coast would have shipped to California to race against Z and she could have shown that she could handle that company. Now that Stronach is going back to dirt, there will be no excuses for any ones horse not to ship where the action is, California now included. I also expect to see a lot of the east coast trainers sending horses to Stronachs "dirt" meet as they will have an edge in dirt racing experience over the California horses.
I certainly understand Mr. Sherriffs reluctance to ship and I believe he was correct since you don't win 19 races in a row by making bad decisions. I also believe John looked at the BC as a spring board to year end honors and figured the best will have to go to the breeder's cup (wherever it is) and that will be his main objective each year (and afford the least amount of shipping woes each year). For a mare to win a classic (even though it was over synthetic) and come back the following year to just miss...that's pretty awesome. And as I previously stated...we most likely wouldn't be having this conversation IF the powers that be in California didn't mandate sythetic tracks. Not only that....the BC most likely would have been a permanent fixture in California as I expect it may very well be, after Stronach completes the surface change. TJ

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Postby Sailor Kenshin » Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:00 am

Sysonby wrote:Death by pilot is almost what happened to Forli when he came from Argentina. The plane encountered turbulence; Forli thrashed and the groom was told that he either got him under control immediately or the horse would be euthanized. Fortunately for TB breeding Forli was successfully tranquilized.

Unfortunately my source didn't make it on the Internet but I'm pretty sure it was from a Bloodhorse article in the late 70s when they interviewed the longtime resident vet at Claiborne in a series of articles. I was struck how big a change the loss of a major stallion can be.

As for opinionated folks, they are a dime a dozen online but I so want to ask the overbearing sneering ones what success they've had that they feel they can be so rude. I'm sure there is a law of inverse relationship just waiting to be discovered. It can take it's place next to Godwin's law as an Internet rule.


Amen.

And anyway, Zenyatta drinks beer. Who wouldn't love her for that alone?

:lol:
Somebody bet on the gray!

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Postby xfactor fan » Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:39 am

I believe that the Mosses elected to keep Zenyatta running in California to help support California racing, and generate positive press for the racing industry.

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Postby Shammy Davis » Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:56 am

TJ wrote:
louis finochio wrote:
Secretariat didnt like the Belmont track, as the dirt clods were stinging his face. So he went for the TC in runaway style.


Hi Lou,
Who ever told you that? He holds two track records at Belmont Park, trained over it his whole career, in the early years under my good friend Jimmy Gaffney (may he rest in peace). He'd run through fire if you asked him to, ridiculous! TJ


Louis probably got the information from the same source that he got about QUALITY ROAD still retaining his wolf teeth and that was the reason he was fractious in 2009 BC.

As for ZENYATTA, she may not be the best all-time, but she definitely ranks in the top ten. There is not a horse in my lifetime, with the exception of SECRETARIAT, that has captured the imagination and enthusiasm of the country. BLAME will be a footnote in TB history. I'm w/Wilf on this. If there is a god in heaven, ZENYATTA should be the 2010 HOY.

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Postby TJ » Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:04 am

Shammy Davis wrote:
TJ wrote:
louis finochio wrote:
Secretariat didnt like the Belmont track, as the dirt clods were stinging his face. So he went for the TC in runaway style.


Hi Lou,
Who ever told you that? He holds two track records at Belmont Park, trained over it his whole career, in the early years under my good friend Jimmy Gaffney (may he rest in peace). He'd run through fire if you asked him to, ridiculous! TJ


Louis probably got the information from the same source that he got about QUALITY ROAD still retaining his wolf teeth and that was the reason he was fractious in 2009 BC.

As for ZENYATTA, she may not be the best all-time, but she definitely ranks in the top ten. There is not a horse in my lifetime, with the exception of SECRETARIAT, that has captured the imagination and enthusiasm of the country. BLAME will be a footnote in TB history. I'm w/Wilf on this. If there is a god in heaven, ZENYATTA should be the 2010 HOY.


Hi Shammy,
Quality Road always was a dominant horse and had to be handle properly or he would defend himself if he felt too pressured....his reaction certainly had nothing to do with his wolf teeth. After that episode Pletcher called in Bobby Duncan who was the head starter for NYRA. He always had compassion for the horse and was an advocate of natural horsemanship having studied with Pat Pirelli, Monty Roberts and Ray Hunt. Duncan worked with QR and got him to trust his handlers and the rest is as you've seen him now. He was schooled quite a bit around the gate with the CD crew and Bobby Duncan this go round also.
I'm still hoping to hear Z will race again next season:>) It is a shame Z was beaten, but I can't take a thing away from Blame and his connections....they planned this assault on this years breeder's cup and made all the engagements in their tentative schedule to win the Classic. The difference was Blame got clear sailing and his style allowed him to get first run on Z. Blame wasn't running all that fast through the lane, but managed to dig in when Z made her final surge at the wire. Z made up 5 lengths on Blame through the last 1/4 mile.....she needed 5 1/4 lengths.........TJ