Stallions That Stamp Their Foals
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Stallions That Stamp Their Foals
Any thoughts on stallions who stamp their foals. Are stallions, percentage wise, likelier to sire better performing horses or is stamping them just a minor factor?
I guess many people may think that since genes are independent one from the other, that there shouldn't be any relation between
the stamp (and other racing similarities) of the sire and the stamp (and other racing similarities) of his sons.
All I can say is that from a scientific and biological point of view one cannot claim that there is a close relation. Period!
BUT, from a "gut-feeling" point of view, many of us are inclined to think that there is some kind of unexplainable "deja-vu" that subtly coalesces the mold of a sire with the mold of certain sons. This is not a scientific "dictum" but a personal opinion: When I witness the appearance of a horse with many physical similarities with his sire, and their mares both possess similar racing profiles, I am under the impression that a certain causality "deja vu" operates. But since there is no scientific evidence to support this way of thinking let's imagination play its role
.
(p.s. Have you noticed that many coincidences occurred to Native Dancer and Dancer's Image? Both won "Futuritys" as juveniles. Both established intermediate track records as juveniles. Both earned titles as champion juveniles. Both were broodmare sired by quite respected stamina stallions. Both nearly or practically won the Derby yet both lost that race to "prophetically" named nemesis. Both possessed "come-from-behind" racing styles yet both were best known for their sprinting progeny. There are other "deja vu" similarities but let's stop here.
See the point?)
the stamp (and other racing similarities) of the sire and the stamp (and other racing similarities) of his sons.
All I can say is that from a scientific and biological point of view one cannot claim that there is a close relation. Period!
BUT, from a "gut-feeling" point of view, many of us are inclined to think that there is some kind of unexplainable "deja-vu" that subtly coalesces the mold of a sire with the mold of certain sons. This is not a scientific "dictum" but a personal opinion: When I witness the appearance of a horse with many physical similarities with his sire, and their mares both possess similar racing profiles, I am under the impression that a certain causality "deja vu" operates. But since there is no scientific evidence to support this way of thinking let's imagination play its role
.
(p.s. Have you noticed that many coincidences occurred to Native Dancer and Dancer's Image? Both won "Futuritys" as juveniles. Both established intermediate track records as juveniles. Both earned titles as champion juveniles. Both were broodmare sired by quite respected stamina stallions. Both nearly or practically won the Derby yet both lost that race to "prophetically" named nemesis. Both possessed "come-from-behind" racing styles yet both were best known for their sprinting progeny. There are other "deja vu" similarities but let's stop here.
See the point?)
Let me clarify. Stallions who produce foals that are physically similar. Is there any evidence indicating stallions who produce a similar physical type translates to superior racing aptitude over those stallions who produce a wider variety of physical types?
"Politicians should be limited to two terms, one in office and another in jail." Anonymous
Dunno. Northern Dancer stamped most of his foals, but Nijinsky II (probably his best racing son) took after his dam Flaming Page. Ditto with Man o' War, whose best son, War Admiral, took after his dam's side physically. Secretariat often passed on that big, sloping, muscular rump of his, but again, Risen Star (his best runner), physically took more after his dam. On the other hand, Hyperion didn't seem to stamp his foals that much and his good ones came in pretty much all shapes and sizes. Go figure.
"A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher...You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse." C. S. Lewis
Here's a piece of an article I am reading on prepotency.
>>Selecting a stallion for a specific mare can be very difficult,
but there are many things that can be done to load the dice to favor
the breeder. If the mare is a maiden, it is best to start with a
proven, prepotent stallion ( a stallion that has well established
bloodlines and has shown that he can predictably pass these traits
to his offspring), especially if little is known about the prepotency
of the mare's bloodlines. After a foal or two it might be possible to
determine how the mare affects the genetic background of the
stallion. If the offspring are much like the mare, she carries many
dominant genes. If the offspring are more like the sire, the mare
might have fewer dominant genes and her foals will be more
heavily influenced by the sire.<<
So if a sire passes on many similar physical traits to a variety of mares it means he likely is passing down a large number of dominant genes. Whether those dominant genes translate into superior racing aptitude is the unknown factor.
>>Selecting a stallion for a specific mare can be very difficult,
but there are many things that can be done to load the dice to favor
the breeder. If the mare is a maiden, it is best to start with a
proven, prepotent stallion ( a stallion that has well established
bloodlines and has shown that he can predictably pass these traits
to his offspring), especially if little is known about the prepotency
of the mare's bloodlines. After a foal or two it might be possible to
determine how the mare affects the genetic background of the
stallion. If the offspring are much like the mare, she carries many
dominant genes. If the offspring are more like the sire, the mare
might have fewer dominant genes and her foals will be more
heavily influenced by the sire.<<
So if a sire passes on many similar physical traits to a variety of mares it means he likely is passing down a large number of dominant genes. Whether those dominant genes translate into superior racing aptitude is the unknown factor.
"Politicians should be limited to two terms, one in office and another in jail." Anonymous
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xfactor fan
- Breeder's Cup Winner
- Posts: 2212
- Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:46 pm
I've been looking at this issue for several years now, and have come to the couclusiong that big pieces of conformation are passed on as a unit.
Northern Dancer sons for example come in all sizes, shapes and colors. However they all seem to have his hind end. And a whole lot of the good ones seem to have the same pattern of white, blaze, three white feet. Which would indicate that there is something good on the chromosome that contains the sabino gene, and base coat color.
Northern Dancer is interesting, he was tiny for a TB, but despite that handicap, a wonderful racehorse.
This would indicate that while he had the handicap of small size, everything else was exceptional.
So lets suppose that genetic map of hind end structure is located on one area on one chromosome. Northern Dancer would have had to have the same kind of structure on both chromosomes, and it would have to be a dominant version. Thus he would only have the one type of hind end to pass along.
Secretariat's sloping rump, and low set tail, shows up in his immediate family, not a great surprise that he passed it along.
Anyone have pictures of some Secretariat x Northern Dancer crosses? Might be interesting to see who's rump wins the genetic lottery.
I've been looking for a photo of Somethingfabulous for ages. (Northern Dancer x Somethingroyal) He stood in California for a while.
Northern Dancer sons for example come in all sizes, shapes and colors. However they all seem to have his hind end. And a whole lot of the good ones seem to have the same pattern of white, blaze, three white feet. Which would indicate that there is something good on the chromosome that contains the sabino gene, and base coat color.
Northern Dancer is interesting, he was tiny for a TB, but despite that handicap, a wonderful racehorse.
This would indicate that while he had the handicap of small size, everything else was exceptional.
So lets suppose that genetic map of hind end structure is located on one area on one chromosome. Northern Dancer would have had to have the same kind of structure on both chromosomes, and it would have to be a dominant version. Thus he would only have the one type of hind end to pass along.
Secretariat's sloping rump, and low set tail, shows up in his immediate family, not a great surprise that he passed it along.
Anyone have pictures of some Secretariat x Northern Dancer crosses? Might be interesting to see who's rump wins the genetic lottery.
I've been looking for a photo of Somethingfabulous for ages. (Northern Dancer x Somethingroyal) He stood in California for a while.
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drewsbadboy
- Maiden Special Weight
- Posts: 144
- Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:38 am
- Location: Illinois
Devil His Due really makes gorgeous, sturdy foals with the right mare.
We have one of them, and everyone that has seen her wants to purchase but no sale, we are very much in love with this young lady!
Not to mention a very good temperment but still has to be the front runner in the pack when the herd does their turnout "runs"! Love those moments.
We have one of them, and everyone that has seen her wants to purchase but no sale, we are very much in love with this young lady!
Not to mention a very good temperment but still has to be the front runner in the pack when the herd does their turnout "runs"! Love those moments.
We will NEVER see another Ruffian......
erhrdt3 wrote:Devil His Due really makes gorgeous, sturdy foals with the right mare.
We have one of them, and everyone that has seen her wants to purchase but no sale, we are very much in love with this young lady!
Not to mention a very good temperment but still has to be the front runner in the pack when the herd does their turnout "runs"! Love those moments.
What is your opinion on the stamp seen on this colt by DHD?
Does he mirrors his sire regardless of his different color?
WHITE PRINCE (2008) http://www.pedigreequery.com/white+prince3
Hi Jorge,
There are some very good parts that came from Devil, although I have not seen Patchen Beauty either, but the strong rump area, and the head and neck are similiar. My filly is more muscular than this colt is, thicker chest like Devil's,
a friend of mine has a pure white yearling colt the White Chief, think the white stallion that died (who was that? forgot) sired him. The White Chief was on the front page of the Lexington Newspaper not long ago if anyone saw that.
You could not GIVE me an all white horse. Sunburn, Sunblock, blankets in the summer, I have some photos of him when he was just born and his little nose just from being out in a highly shaded paddock was getting red. Poor fella.
He came out of a very nice bay mare with white on her feet also. The owner thought that a baby white deer had come into the barn as he had just missed the birth, and then took a double look and saw a pure white baby horse! He was not expecting it, but knew it was a slight possibility. I would think dark is predominant over white.
Devil his Due is black, but yet the white overcame the black. I bred my mare to him and got a blood bay!! Go figure. I wanted a black one. However the filly he did give us is sure a keeper! Nice stallion. Nice filly.
There are some very good parts that came from Devil, although I have not seen Patchen Beauty either, but the strong rump area, and the head and neck are similiar. My filly is more muscular than this colt is, thicker chest like Devil's,
a friend of mine has a pure white yearling colt the White Chief, think the white stallion that died (who was that? forgot) sired him. The White Chief was on the front page of the Lexington Newspaper not long ago if anyone saw that.
You could not GIVE me an all white horse. Sunburn, Sunblock, blankets in the summer, I have some photos of him when he was just born and his little nose just from being out in a highly shaded paddock was getting red. Poor fella.
He came out of a very nice bay mare with white on her feet also. The owner thought that a baby white deer had come into the barn as he had just missed the birth, and then took a double look and saw a pure white baby horse! He was not expecting it, but knew it was a slight possibility. I would think dark is predominant over white.
Devil his Due is black, but yet the white overcame the black. I bred my mare to him and got a blood bay!! Go figure. I wanted a black one. However the filly he did give us is sure a keeper! Nice stallion. Nice filly.
We will NEVER see another Ruffian......
erhrdt3 wrote:Hi Jorge,
There are some very good parts that came from Devil, although I have not seen Patchen Beauty either, but the strong rump area, and the head and neck are similiar. My filly is more muscular than this colt is, thicker chest like Devil's,
a friend of mine has a pure white yearling colt the White Chief, think the white stallion that died (who was that? forgot) sired him. The White Chief was on the front page of the Lexington Newspaper not long ago if anyone saw that.
You could not GIVE me an all white horse. Sunburn, Sunblock, blankets in the summer, I have some photos of him when he was just born and his little nose just from being out in a highly shaded paddock was getting red. Poor fella.
He came out of a very nice bay mare with white on her feet also. The owner thought that a baby white deer had come into the barn as he had just missed the birth, and then took a double look and saw a pure white baby horse! He was not expecting it, but knew it was a slight possibility. I would think dark is predominant over white.
Devil his Due is black, but yet the white overcame the black. I bred my mare to him and got a blood bay!! Go figure. I wanted a black one. However the filly he did give us is sure a keeper! Nice stallion. Nice filly.
Most probably you are referring to this colt
CHIEF WHITE FOX http://www.pedigreequery.com/chief+white+fox
who was sired by the deceased stallion THE WHITE FOX.