Not defending Joe at all. He is a big boy.
I am defending my little stallion, and my little mares, and my little continuous investment in Texas. Pretty absurd isn't it?
We should be thankful for Lanes End, Valor, Key, Assmussen H.C. and a few others that have continued to stand stallions and remain in the game.
I still don't know what you would suggest be changed. You compare our previous program to AK, yet there are significant differences. You mention LA and NM, but only complain about the restrictiveness of those programs. And you have no comment for an agenda that has been devoid of any creativeness for many years. I have never once said I have the right answers, but I do know when something is not working. Sticking your hand out for a subsidy is usually not the best solution.
And I am sick of hearing how great the sales were 20-30 years ago. All the breeding programs were more wide open. Other states were either craftier or smarter to help consolidate the industry since then. For all the pats on the backs you want to give yourselves for passing pari-mutuel wagering, you got passed by in the breeding shed.
So give solutions, just don't criticize those that at least try. Tell us how you would make the sales better today, or does one not exist. Is status quo acceptable to you there, is the breeding program?
The track record is firmly established. We are the poster child for "insanity".
Yet, it seems your plan is to put all eggs in a non-existant basket, and when we find this pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, all the fixes will be made then. I hope you are right.
Texas Thoroughbred Forum
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keyranch
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Ok, did it improve the breeds and how do you judge the success of that! The loss of John Star is Arkansas is why the sale is gone, it has nothing to do with the rules in Arkansas! Keep it in context.
Tinner and I both agree there needs to be change, we do not readily agree on the change needed. We accept that premise and want to do what is best for the industry in Texas. Improve the breed, how is that working out for us over the last decade or since these rules have gone into place. Since the number of starts/horse of gone down nationally, all of the state incentive programs have failed to improve the breed. It has been thirty years since someone has beaten Secretariats fractions, so again nationally we have failed to improve the breed. Tell me how do we judge if we have improved the breed in Texas!
Since you brought up the sales is that how we judge improving the breed. The average sale price of a Texas bred is lower now than prior to changing the breed back rule, so is that how we determine how well we improved the breed!
Is it the amount of participation in racing? Lets look at the TTA stud book from when the rule was changed and now! Where did all the farms, economic impact, and people go to? Is that how we judge improving the breed, fewer farms, people, and economic impact?
Tell us all how the current rules have improved the breed in Texas, and what that improved quality has cost the state and horsemen in Texas! I appreciate the comments and everyone is interested in your opinion.
Tinner and I both agree there needs to be change, we do not readily agree on the change needed. We accept that premise and want to do what is best for the industry in Texas. Improve the breed, how is that working out for us over the last decade or since these rules have gone into place. Since the number of starts/horse of gone down nationally, all of the state incentive programs have failed to improve the breed. It has been thirty years since someone has beaten Secretariats fractions, so again nationally we have failed to improve the breed. Tell me how do we judge if we have improved the breed in Texas!
Since you brought up the sales is that how we judge improving the breed. The average sale price of a Texas bred is lower now than prior to changing the breed back rule, so is that how we determine how well we improved the breed!
Is it the amount of participation in racing? Lets look at the TTA stud book from when the rule was changed and now! Where did all the farms, economic impact, and people go to? Is that how we judge improving the breed, fewer farms, people, and economic impact?
Tell us all how the current rules have improved the breed in Texas, and what that improved quality has cost the state and horsemen in Texas! I appreciate the comments and everyone is interested in your opinion.
Gate2wire, I am totally flabbergasted that you stooped so low and said the things that you said about Joe. Surely, your mother wouldn't be proud of you for saying such things. Secondly, why would you berate a plan B? That just doesn't make sense to me. So, you are for the slots or nothing agenda but do you have a backup plan if it doesn't pan out? succeed? What is your back up plan? Personally, my opinion is that anyone who is against the betterment of Texas racing except for VLT's has a personal stake in VLT's passing and they are not looking out for the horsemen and the horses. Shame, shame!
Jazette Hudson
Jazette Hudson
JR & Jazette, you need to get off your hypocritical high horse. You must post so much you forget what you write. Do you really want to take a stance that you NEVER post anything negative about someone on this blog? Never said I was against ADW's. I just used Keys "little" words like he does.
Tinner & Key don't have time now to answer your numerous questions right now
Tinner & Key don't have time now to answer your numerous questions right now
Tinner & Key you want facts - here's the TRUTH
John Starr had nothing to do w/all the farms that have closed in AR - so
Key try to stay on track
AR in 1991 - Mares bred 810
2010 - Mares bred 397 DROP of over 50%
Is that the fault of failed program or just the industry?
CA - w/a breed back rule and high purses
1991- Mares bred 7,365
2010- Mares bred 2,638 DROP of 63%
In 2010, they had a larger drop than TX w/27.5%
PA - open breeding program & less purse money than CA
1991 - Mares bred 974
2010 - Mares bred 1,746
PA has 6 Stallions on the General Sires list, 3 w/a fee over $10k. This state has been the MOST successful breeding program in recent years!
It is NOT the policies of any board or organization that has caused the decline. Horses & people will go where the money is...always have and always will.
Why is the decline in TX anybody or any oranizations fault when this is a national trend? It's time for you to quit blaming the associations for your success or lack of
John Starr had nothing to do w/all the farms that have closed in AR - so
Key try to stay on track
AR in 1991 - Mares bred 810
2010 - Mares bred 397 DROP of over 50%
Is that the fault of failed program or just the industry?
CA - w/a breed back rule and high purses
1991- Mares bred 7,365
2010- Mares bred 2,638 DROP of 63%
In 2010, they had a larger drop than TX w/27.5%
PA - open breeding program & less purse money than CA
1991 - Mares bred 974
2010 - Mares bred 1,746
PA has 6 Stallions on the General Sires list, 3 w/a fee over $10k. This state has been the MOST successful breeding program in recent years!
It is NOT the policies of any board or organization that has caused the decline. Horses & people will go where the money is...always have and always will.
Why is the decline in TX anybody or any oranizations fault when this is a national trend? It's time for you to quit blaming the associations for your success or lack of
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tinners way
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Gatetowire, you are absolutely correct.
In fact, for 10 years we have addressed our problems with the same agenda. As I said, I hope you are right this time.
I am amazed how quickly you judge. Big, little, success, failure.
For you, Ajo, and Horsecrazy, glad to see the self confidence. We just want to learn from you. (and I mean that seriously, not sarcastically)
It is easy to point out success and failure in other venues. Great learning tools. I think everyone is well aware of the flow of money, and how that changes things. There are other factors in CA as well, just like AR, etc. Lots of different ways to address adversity. We just need to digest what is the best way to be successful with what we have, while we pursue other opportunities vs. always pinning our future on a single long shot. (and yes, I want the long shot to come in just as badly as you do- but I cannot plan my business around it.)
Unlike some that want to "Adios" at adversity or when questioned, I feel like sticking around. I have too much to gain.
In fact, for 10 years we have addressed our problems with the same agenda. As I said, I hope you are right this time.
I am amazed how quickly you judge. Big, little, success, failure.
For you, Ajo, and Horsecrazy, glad to see the self confidence. We just want to learn from you. (and I mean that seriously, not sarcastically)
It is easy to point out success and failure in other venues. Great learning tools. I think everyone is well aware of the flow of money, and how that changes things. There are other factors in CA as well, just like AR, etc. Lots of different ways to address adversity. We just need to digest what is the best way to be successful with what we have, while we pursue other opportunities vs. always pinning our future on a single long shot. (and yes, I want the long shot to come in just as badly as you do- but I cannot plan my business around it.)
Unlike some that want to "Adios" at adversity or when questioned, I feel like sticking around. I have too much to gain.
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keyranch
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The Jon Star comment was in reference to your sale comment. You did a bait and switch and changed it to the loss of mares and farms in Arkansas. When I was in Oklahoma I had several Arkansas clients and some followed me to Texas for the first few years. Even with the incentive program, their biggest complaint was the lack of year round racing in state. At the time, the instant race machines were a big question mark as to their impact on purses. Now we know they have been outstanding!
Being in the bussiness during the stripping of the state bred rules from state to state, I can confidently say that Texas was just one of the last dominoes to fall. When the state incentive programs burst on the scene the Ky breds were blocked out of the restricted stakes schedules and Mecca took those restrictions and states out one by one. The same talking points that was used in Texas was used in VA, MD, OH, etc across the country!
Once people were convinced that the road to great horses and getting an edge led to Lexington the people flocked to all the cut rate deals made to them and soon learned the deals came at a heavy price. Many good people delivered their mares to Ky and left their shirts to get them back. Look at the response when TX finally gave up the ghost and opened up, the ones that could afford it took the deals for a year or two, many others refused to have the cards stacked against their horses, and the stubborn few refused to quit.
Phil has presented to the board the steady decline in the numbers bred, and I am sure that would correlate to the other states decline after they changed their rules. Do not kid yourself the Ky boys were way ahead of the curve and now have shot themselves in the foot over being greedy. There are no regional programs left to siphon off of.
Historically, when a state gets additional revenue the breeders get involved on the boards again and restrictions start getting put back in place. New Mexico, Oklahoma, and LA.
Your point about trends is accurate, Texas followed the trends because they followed the rule changes and refuse to accept responsibility for bad decisions. That is the brief history of the rule change as I see it, right or wrong. The bottom line is that there is problem and the TTA refuses to acknowledge there is a problem, do the work to make a plan to solve the problem, and the present to the legislature the changes in the rules. I was told point blank by a TTA board member on the executive committee that the TTA would not present anything to the legislature that would interfere with the slots or nothing agenda. That just makes no sense to me at all, and refusing to act should be grounds for the TRC to investigate their statis as the horseman's representative or should at least question their ability to be involved in the distribution of breeders funds. There should be consequences to their lack of action!
A big part of the reason I chose Texas over those other states you have listed is that at the time Steve Hicks and Jeff Hooper assured me that the TTA was for Texas and would not sale out to the Ky boys. Things changed quickly with arrival of another Hooper at the TTA. As far as being smarter than the other states, that is really an absurd statement. Economic power, population, and cost put Texas a huge advantage over virtually all other racing states. What is absurd is the effort required to make this industry look this bad by those that are supposed to be promoting it!
Being in the bussiness during the stripping of the state bred rules from state to state, I can confidently say that Texas was just one of the last dominoes to fall. When the state incentive programs burst on the scene the Ky breds were blocked out of the restricted stakes schedules and Mecca took those restrictions and states out one by one. The same talking points that was used in Texas was used in VA, MD, OH, etc across the country!
Once people were convinced that the road to great horses and getting an edge led to Lexington the people flocked to all the cut rate deals made to them and soon learned the deals came at a heavy price. Many good people delivered their mares to Ky and left their shirts to get them back. Look at the response when TX finally gave up the ghost and opened up, the ones that could afford it took the deals for a year or two, many others refused to have the cards stacked against their horses, and the stubborn few refused to quit.
Phil has presented to the board the steady decline in the numbers bred, and I am sure that would correlate to the other states decline after they changed their rules. Do not kid yourself the Ky boys were way ahead of the curve and now have shot themselves in the foot over being greedy. There are no regional programs left to siphon off of.
Historically, when a state gets additional revenue the breeders get involved on the boards again and restrictions start getting put back in place. New Mexico, Oklahoma, and LA.
Your point about trends is accurate, Texas followed the trends because they followed the rule changes and refuse to accept responsibility for bad decisions. That is the brief history of the rule change as I see it, right or wrong. The bottom line is that there is problem and the TTA refuses to acknowledge there is a problem, do the work to make a plan to solve the problem, and the present to the legislature the changes in the rules. I was told point blank by a TTA board member on the executive committee that the TTA would not present anything to the legislature that would interfere with the slots or nothing agenda. That just makes no sense to me at all, and refusing to act should be grounds for the TRC to investigate their statis as the horseman's representative or should at least question their ability to be involved in the distribution of breeders funds. There should be consequences to their lack of action!
A big part of the reason I chose Texas over those other states you have listed is that at the time Steve Hicks and Jeff Hooper assured me that the TTA was for Texas and would not sale out to the Ky boys. Things changed quickly with arrival of another Hooper at the TTA. As far as being smarter than the other states, that is really an absurd statement. Economic power, population, and cost put Texas a huge advantage over virtually all other racing states. What is absurd is the effort required to make this industry look this bad by those that are supposed to be promoting it!
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jrgators
- Starters Handicap
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The statement of "at the expense of slots" has been told to me by more than 1 of those in power on both TTA, and THP boards. Nothing will be supported, or brought up that would change that.
The legislation that's currently in bill form should be read very carefully by everyone involved. The choice of words aren't accidental by any means. There are several items that should be examined, and if this deal goes forward in it's current state, that are not the best for Texas.
The continued lack of support for Texas Derby, Poker Bills, ADW, IRM, and OTB's should be sad to all of us.
Again today there is no new news on any of the bills.
I hope everyone has a great night.
Theophilus Scales, Jr.
The legislation that's currently in bill form should be read very carefully by everyone involved. The choice of words aren't accidental by any means. There are several items that should be examined, and if this deal goes forward in it's current state, that are not the best for Texas.
The continued lack of support for Texas Derby, Poker Bills, ADW, IRM, and OTB's should be sad to all of us.
Again today there is no new news on any of the bills.
I hope everyone has a great night.
Theophilus Scales, Jr.
I'm looking at the breed back rule and the roll of the TTA from a different point of view, I guess. The purpose of the TTA to me is to help Texas horsemen and breeders. The way you do that is by putting money in their pockets. Stallion owners at this time need help and the current rules are hurting them and for that reason alone, we need a tight closed breed back rule at this time.
If slots come about, then maybe we can all just ignore the local boys and breed to Kentucky stallions, heck lets upgrade all the way. Any horse bred and foaled anywhere can be a Texas bred. We could have the best and worse statebred progam at the same time.
I really think that the TTA should follow their bylaws and work for race dates and increased purses on an equal basis.
If slots come about, then maybe we can all just ignore the local boys and breed to Kentucky stallions, heck lets upgrade all the way. Any horse bred and foaled anywhere can be a Texas bred. We could have the best and worse statebred progam at the same time.
I really think that the TTA should follow their bylaws and work for race dates and increased purses on an equal basis.
Loving God, Loving People and Serving = Peace and Happiness
Try it you will like it.
Try it you will like it.
Key, as usual you write a book to attempt to make a point. Since the change in the rule, the % of horses bred out of state has stayed about the same 13-18%, so not much change. No stallion in states that have breed restrictions has never earned his way beyond that...most decline & eventually disappear declining in value & performance. The avg. stud fees in states w/any restrictions are about 1/2 of the states without restrictions.
Live foal % in restricted states are always terrible and in Tx it's 44%. So that means that if 60% of those make it to the track, that number is now 24. Now 60% of those are winners or 13. That's 13 out of 100.
Now let me ask you a question since you are always asking numerous questions...what's your "little" farms live foal rate?
Live foal % in restricted states are always terrible and in Tx it's 44%. So that means that if 60% of those make it to the track, that number is now 24. Now 60% of those are winners or 13. That's 13 out of 100.
Now let me ask you a question since you are always asking numerous questions...what's your "little" farms live foal rate?