Raise A Native Sire Line

[stancaris]

In the last 12 years 8 Derby winners carried the Raise A Natiive Sire Line. It has been the best sire line for generating Preakness and Belmont winners as well. My question- Is this just coincidence or is there more to it? Does the presence of RAN on the sire line actually give an advantage to the very best Derby contenders, Preakness and Belmont contenders? Some posters may think it is due to the population of horses that carry RAN in the sire line but when statistical analysis is done on all three Triple Crown races, one finds that the percent of starters with the RAN sire line is always much less than the percent of winners with that line.

[zinn21]

Mr. P impacted sire line. He has a lot to.do with Raise A Native influence.

[Bast]

In the last 12 years 8 Derby winners carried the Raise A Natiive Sire Line. It has been the best sire line for generating Preakness and Belmont winners as well. My question- Is this just coincidence or is there more to it? Does the presence of RAN on the sire line actually give an advantage to the very best Derby contenders, Preakness and Belmont contenders? Some posters may think it is due to the population of horses that carry RAN in the sire line but when statistical analysis is done on all three Triple Crown races, one finds that the percent of starters with the RAN sire line is always much less than the percent of winners with that line.

Consider the past dominance of the Bold Ruler sire line in Derby winners--trends come and go:

1970 Dust Commander
1971
1972
1973 Secretariat
1974 Cannonade
1975 Foolish Pleasure
1976 Bold Forbes
1977 Seattle Slew
1978
1979 Spectacular Bid

[stancaris]

Yes, trends do come and go but the Ran dominance totals 17 Derby winners since 1969 when Majestic Prince won the roses. The Bold Ruler line was basically dominant only in the 1970s and only generated 8 Derby winners through history. I believe the Ran sire line will be a major line in the next ten to 20 years. Smart Strike, Distorted Humor, Street Sense, etc are keeping the line going

[diomed]

Yes, trends do come and go but the Ran dominance totals 17 Derby winners since 1969 when Majestic Prince won the roses. The Bold Ruler line was basically dominant only in the 1970s and only generated 8 Derby winners through history. I believe the Ran sire line will be a major line in the next ten to 20 years. Smart Strike, Distorted Humor, Street Sense, etc are keeping the line going

Bold Ruler is not done yet with all the AP Indy stallions making waves. Just sayin. Anyways, sirelines come and go, just as they always have throughout the breed's history. St. Simon, Lexington, etc.....
I am more interested in the female lines, ESPECIALLY after they found the speed gene came from a mare, not a stallion.

[Jorge]

Wow, time and time again we have learned by huge evidence about the importance of female lineages and their paramount importance in producing great performing Thoroughbreds. But then when we encounter "prepotent" male lineages like Raise A Native and Bold Ruler we have to ask ourselves why the apparent contradiction. I wonder if perhaps, the importance of the aforementioned stallions is more related to their ability to pass on what their female ancestresses are providing them rather than their own sire line aptitudes. Makes me think about how great Grey Flight was as a broodmare rather than the Bold Rulers Ambiorixes and Princequillos that bred her. That does't mean that those stallions had nothing to do with their products but perhaps we have studied very little their very real genetic merits. And the thing is that albeit
we tend to recognize the importance of broodmares, publishing companies
are always more oriented on the importance of Stallions Directories rather than "Broodmare Directories". Of course broodmare owners are less inclined to depart from their precious mares. Perhaps that's the reason why some people have no other choice than to browse and wonder on top of their Stallion Directories like a Winter Wishbook from yesteryears. In no way this a criticism to the 50% percent role of a stallion but perhaps to rethink and visualize the "additional" factors that really makes a stallion a good passer of genetics.

[stancaris]

Does anyone know how many AP Indy sons have won Triple Crown events. I do not think any ever won the Derby but how many won the Preakness and Belmont?

[DDT]

Stan

I think with 10 winners out of the 17 Mr. Prospector has a lot to do with the RAN line and Derby winners when you consider the Majestic Prince line is responsible for 2, Alydar 2 and Exclusive Native 2.

DDT

[diomed]

Does anyone know how many AP Indy sons have won Triple Crown events. I do not think any ever won the Derby but how many won the Preakness and Belmont?

Bernardini won the Preakness and Rags To Riches won the Belmont. He has had bad luck in the Derby. Aptitude ran 2nd in 2000.

[Joltman]

a couple of possibilities...

-> Mr. P, despite his brilliance, does sire a dose of stamina in certain situatioins, a rare commodity for getting the mile and a quarter.

-> the combinations of Mr. P with mares (including bm sires) may be genetically more potent than other lines by the numbers.

- the best RANs were bred to the best.

haven't run any numbers, just a guess

jm

[stancaris]

Mr. Propector is a B/C chef de race. I think that means he sired horses that won stakes in sprints (B chefs do that in general) and horses that can win stake races going long (C Chefs do that in general). Here is my question-- Is Mr. Propector more like a brilliant chef than a Classic chef or is he more like a Classic chef than Brilliant chef or does the B/C classification mean he got an almost equal amount of stakes winners in sprints as that of Classic distances?

If he gets almost an equal amount of stakes winners in sprints as he did in Classic races one might conclude that he passed on stamina as well as brilliant sprinting ability and that can explain why 10 of the 17 RAN sire line Derby winners go thru Mr. Prospector in tail-male.

[Barcaldine]

My theory is that RAN transmits stamina from his sire Native Dancer (a deep closer who had no trouble with 10 furlongs) and speed/precocity/unsoundness from his damsire CASE ACE (fast 2yo who broke down at 3).

In addition to his sire's makeup, MR P transmits stamina and turf performance from his dam GOLD DIGGER (middle distance turf stakes winner) and her sire, NASHUA, whom he closely resembles in type and color.

And for speed and class, COUNT FLEET, BULL DOG and BLUE LARKSPUR as the next damsires. Plus MYRTLEWOOD's stamp of domination from the damline.

[Georgerz]

Bast wrote:
"Consider the past dominance of the Bold Ruler sire line in Derby winners--trends come and go:

1970 Dust Commander
1971
1972
1973 Secretariat
1974 Cannonade
1975 Foolish Pleasure
1976 Bold Forbes
1977 Seattle Slew
1978
1979 Spectacular Bid"

Missed Swale in that list.

[Bast]

1970 Dust Commander
1971
1972
1973 Secretariat
1974 Cannonade
1975 Foolish Pleasure
1976 Bold Forbes
1977 Seattle Slew
1978
1979 Spectacular Bid
1980
1981
1982
1983
1984Swale

Fixed.

Thank you.

[Linda_d]

a couple of possibilities...

-> Mr. P, despite his brilliance, does sire a dose of stamina in certain situatioins, a rare commodity for getting the mile and a quarter.

-> the combinations of Mr. P with mares (including bm sires) may be genetically more potent than other lines by the numbers.

- the best RANs were bred to the best. haven't run any numbers, just a guess

jm

I think this is a big key to sire lines' dominance. Popular sires are bred to the best mares -- and lots of them. The sons of popular sires get more and better mares. This greatly increases the chances of these sire-lines producing great horses.