I don't understand what matz is doing with union rags

[Terrapin Flyer]

seriously guys you guys know better than to put that much stock into a gallop out.

Seriously!!! go train a horse for a day or two before you start talking about what is improtant and what isn't. The gallop out can tell you a lot about a horse in the morning and afternoon) even more so when you are attempting to stretch it out.

[Shammy Davis]

Terrapin Flyer wrote:

I'm glad to see that most of the horsemen and women on this post saw what I saw. By the way BDW I don't bet, aside from a few bucks on Derby and BC day, so you don't have to warn me off a horse. Not that I put any weight into the majority of what you post on here anyways.

Exactly. I know of no handicapper that has ever made "big bucks" solely betting the ponies. They make their living as TV commentators, authors, race analyst, and tip sheet publishers. If they could really handicap for profit, they wouldn't need their second jobs.

UR looks like the real deal. Matz isn't doing anything wrong. He is a true horseman.

Bdw0617 you've gotten into a bad habit. Criticizing success doesn't make sense to many people, particularly with those who know something about horseracing.

[bdw0617]

Terrapin Flyer wrote:

I'm glad to see that most of the horsemen and women on this post saw what I saw. By the way BDW I don't bet, aside from a few bucks on Derby and BC day, so you don't have to warn me off a horse. Not that I put any weight into the majority of what you post on here anyways.

Exactly. I know of no handicapper that has ever made "big bucks" solely betting the ponies. They make their living as TV commentators, authors, race analyst, and tip sheet publishers. If they could really handicap for profit, they wouldn't need their second jobs.

UR looks like the real deal. Matz isn't doing anything wrong. He is a true horseman.

Bdw0617 you've gotten into a bad habit. Criticizing success doesn't make sense to many people, particularly with those who know something about horseracing.

you may know something about training but i would out handicap this entire forum drunk with both hands tied behind my back.

this horse wants no part of 10F.

but in the derby someone will come and say they saw something and how they were right even for being wrong "(just like this thread when itold everyone he won't win the florida derby only for people now to come and end up being right and still find a reason to criticize me).

the thing about me is i can't be right even when i am right. not one person here said good call BDW. you went against the grain and was right. but if i did this to be popular i would not speak my mind.


the real travesty i believe here and part of the reason i speak my mind is becuase no one speaks their mind anymore. no one goes against the status quo for fear of being reprimanded by the inner cliques that are horse people and horse racing. what realy burns me up about this is not matz or his shitty job he did getting this horse ready for a distance he wasn't bred to love.

what really pisses me off, is that no one holds him accountable in the media. n o one posts any articles or calls into question his 2 and derby training methods with this horse, after the derby everyone holds their breath and waits for him to speak and at the hint of him saying he wasn't happ with the ride everyone cruisifes JL and all is right in the world of union rags again

you may or may not agree with me, i could care less. seriously. but you always will know where i stand on an issue and if i think something stinks i will say so. that is me, that will always be me and i like that about me.

maybe if we had some more people like myself who aren't afraid to say what they feel, maybe it would make someone try to actually train a horse again. trainers are more concerned about winning the media race than winning the actual race. maybe if someone actually called into question these shitty training methods of getting horses ready for the derby, maybe we would have a real derby again.i mean the winnder of the FL derby's trainer just said that his horse isn't going to breeze on the track until 2 weeks before the derby that's 5 weeks away and no one bats one eye. something is wrong with that picture.

again, let's put my original post in perspective. am not saying the horse sucks, or the horse is no good. i'm saying the horse is not bred to nor is he now prepared to be a legit threat in a route race because of his improper conditioning. i have not seen a damn thing that would refuse that. wow catching up to a horse that ran a whole 95 beyer speed figure rotfl. wow that's flying\

i think union rags is a very talented horse whose trainer did a hack job on him getting him ready for the derby and everyone is quick to lay blame at everyone execpt the person who deserves it most. if union rags was as fit as he should hav ebeen the race shoudl have been over when union rags angled outside coming in the stretch.

[Bast]

Terrapin Flyer wrote:

I'm glad to see that most of the horsemen and women on this post saw what I saw. By the way BDW I don't bet, aside from a few bucks on Derby and BC day, so you don't have to warn me off a horse. Not that I put any weight into the majority of what you post on here anyways.

Exactly. I know of no handicapper that has ever made "big bucks" solely betting the ponies. They make their living as TV commentators, authors, race analyst, and tip sheet publishers. If they could really handicap for profit, they wouldn't need their second jobs.

UR looks like the real deal. Matz isn't doing anything wrong. He is a true horseman.

Bdw0617 you've gotten into a bad habit. Criticizing success doesn't make sense to many people, particularly with those who know something about horseracing.

you may know something about training but i would out handicap this entire forum drunk with both hands tied behind my back.

this horse wants no part of 10F.

but in the derby someone will come and say they saw something and how they were right even for being wrong "(just like this thread when itold everyone he won't win the florida derby only for people now to come and end up being right and still find a reason to criticize me).

the thing about me is i can't be right even when i am right. not one person here said good call BDW. you went against the grain and was right. but if i did this to be popular i would not speak my mind.


the real travesty i believe here and part of the reason i speak my mind is becuase no one speaks their mind anymore. no one goes against the status quo for fear of being reprimanded by the inner cliques that are horse people and horse racing. what realy burns me up about this is not matz or his shitty job he did getting this horse ready for a distance he wasn't bred to love.

what really pisses me off, is that no one holds him accountable in the media. n o one posts any articles or calls into question his 2 and derby training methods with this horse, after the derby everyone holds their breath and waits for him to speak and at the hint of him saying he wasn't happ with the ride everyone cruisifes JL and all is right in the world of union rags again

you may or may not agree with me, i could care less. seriously. but you always will know where i stand on an issue and if i think something stinks i will say so. that is me, that will always be me and i like that about me.

maybe if we had some more people like myself who aren't afraid to say what they feel, maybe it would make someone try to actually train a horse again. trainers are more concerned about winning the media race than winning the actual race. maybe if someone actually called into question these shitty training methods of getting horses ready for the derby, maybe we would have a real derby again.i mean the winnder of the FL derby's trainer just said that his horse isn't going to breeze on the track until 2 weeks before the derby that's 5 weeks away and no one bats one eye. something is wrong with that picture.

again, let's put my original post in perspective. am not saying the horse sucks, or the horse is no good. i'm saying the horse is not bred to nor is he now prepared to be a legit threat in a route race because of his improper conditioning. i have not seen a damn thing that would refuse that. wow catching up to a horse that ran a whole 95 beyer speed figure rotfl. wow that's flying\

i think union rags is a very talented horse whose trainer did a hack job on him getting him ready for the derby and everyone is quick to lay blame at everyone execpt the person who deserves it most. if union rags was as fit as he should hav ebeen the race shoudl have been over when union rags angled outside coming in the stretch.

With the exception of Hero of Order, probably none of the 'top' 3 y os are fit. They're running but they aren't prepared for it--someone will win, because someone will always crawl home first but we're not seeing the best that they could deliver.

Nothing will change until someone does something different, and makes a big impression doing it.

[Jessi P]

With the exception of Hero of Order, probably none of the 'top' 3 y os are fit. They're running but they aren't prepared for it--someone will win, because someone will always crawl home first but we're not seeing the best that they could deliver.

Nothing will change until someone does something different, and makes a big impression doing it.

Ironically enough, Hero of Orders trainer does not like to work his horses and has been fined for not having ENOUGH/FAST ENOUGH works.

From: http://www.drf.com/news/arlington-train ... ht-success

Dorochenko shuns timed workouts. He was fined earlier in the meet because a first-time starter lacked the minimum number of published works, and many of Dorochenko’s debuting runners show only a pair of slow three-furlong breezes.

“Money is paid in afternoon, not for workouts. I don’t believe in workouts,” Dorochenko said. “I see this horse galloping and I tell you this horse is fit enough. But for example, California, every six days – work! You know why? Because people have owners to show. ‘Look at this! The big horse worked in 59!’ Go to the race, run like a dog. Already killed in workout. After this, what happens? ‘The jockey gave bad ride.’ Blame the jockey. Blame somebody.”

Hero of Order does show one half mile work between races before the Fla Derby, a week out to give him plenty of time to recover physically for the race.

[Shammy Davis]

Bdw0617 wrote:

you may know something about training but i would out handicap this entire forum drunk with both hands tied behind my back.

Ah! So there is another member, beyond the "inbreeding," thread and "nicksters are crooks" posts that, as Docojoy puts it, is "suffering from parallel universe thinking. IMO, that thought is being too polite.

How do you know what Matz is failing to do to prepare UR for the Derby? Matz, in a very short period of time, has become an extremely successful trainer. The reason for this is because he is a "true horseman" and not a "horse's ass" as you appear to be making yourself out to be. You have a reputation of "slamming" success. Chantal, DWL, now Matz are all victims. If you don't like them personally, that's fine, but professionally they are at the top of their business. Like the author of the "inbreeding" thread, you have not one clue about the subject you are addressing.

Thoughtful horsemen and women, who have something useful to say, keep their thinking on equine subjects confined to the region of their body between their ears, not centrally located in the crack between their buttocks. Think about it.

Bdw0617 wrote:

the real travesty i believe here and part of the reason i speak my mind is becuase no one speaks their mind anymore.

Now you know that's not true.

[griff]

Have you bothered to contact the top trainers and bring to their attention how screwed up their training and prep methods are??

griff

[casallc]

I'll bet a stooper cashes more tickets than BDW. Any one that spends as much time bragging on himself, doesn't have much time for self improvement and due diligence. I had a brother-in-law that touted himself as a great handicapper - he was always hitting me up for a loan (that he wouldn't pay pack unless you threatened him with harm). He died in prison. Unlike BDW, he actually knew a little something about horses - Like BDW just not smart enough to know you can't make living handicapping horses. Government assistance checks are the handicapper’s salvation.

[Sailor Kenshin]

Accountable to the media? Why?

Matz should not be accountable to ANYONE but the owner of the particular horse he's training.

[Bast]

The racing press ain't what it used to be.

[Terrapin Flyer]

you may know something about training but i would out handicap this entire forum drunk with both hands tied behind my back.

I don't think you are giving most people on this forum much credit. You don't know anybody here and what they have or have not done. I put myself through college thanks to handicapping and bought my first few horses with other money I made wagering. Just because I choose not to write about every big race and put down every big trainer doesn't mean I can't handicap. I quit aside from the odd bet here or there because I can't go out and lose my payroll or money for the feed man and the vets. I'm already way more invested than dropping a few bets.

If you think you can out handicap anyone here because you watch replays from everywhere and keep notes your kidding yourself. I know what horses look like when the warm up when they gallop how they look when they pull up and walk back to the barn. Can you watch horses warm up before a race in the post parade, or see how they pull up and jog back after a race? No you can't, there are a lot of people on this forum that can. Do you sit at a bar with jocks agents and other trainers and shoot the shit about the horse they ride in the race or train or talk about potential horses to claim? Just because they choose not to go to the windows or start questioning every successful trainer out there does not mean they can't handicap. Handicapping is more than Beyer speed figures and racereplays.com

[zinn21]

I'm a good friend of the Racing Secretary at Sun Ray Park. He tells everyone I'm the greatest Handicapper he has ever seen. I've made a few good bets but have never made any money betting horses. I've never personally known anyone who has.

Regarding UR not fit or not getting the distance; I think he is fit enough to win the Derby and will win the Derby. They said the Bold Rulers couldn't get the Derby distance until Secretariat did it. They said the Mr. Prospectors couldn't get the distance until Fusaichi Pegasus won it. We shall see..

[kimberley mine]

“Money is paid in afternoon, not for workouts. I don’t believe in workouts,” Dorochenko said. “I see this horse galloping and I tell you this horse is fit enough. But for example, California, every six days – work! You know why? Because people have owners to show. ‘Look at this! The big horse worked in 59!’ Go to the race, run like a dog. Already killed in workout. After this, what happens? ‘The jockey gave bad ride.’ Blame the jockey. Blame somebody.”

Emphasis mine.

It's not just the owners, it's the folks out betting on the races. It's not possible for me to assess how well or not a horse will run without some kind of public information.

It's hard to believe, though, that if a horse races every two weeks, that there isn't enough information on what kind of form it will have! But that's louisiana for you.

[ct2346]

you may know something about training but i would out handicap this entire forum drunk with both hands tied behind my back.

As I assume this is a familiar position for you I will cede the point.

It's a shame, your posts do add value and incite from time to time, but the arrogance of assuming that Matz has missed some concept that l'il ole you is "onto" reeks a bit.

[Shammy Davis]

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/racing ... derby.aspx