Six new chefs-de-race

Discussion and analysis of thoroughbred stallions.

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parlo
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Postby parlo » Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:22 pm

Barcaldine wrote: ... shortcuts which don't work


This is relative: where don't they work and what do you expect from an index?
Those indices don't work, if they don't do what their inventors proclaim.

"FB" / "NFB" doesn't work, too - but that stuff has been filling this forum since 6 years by now with no end at sight and those administrators are happy with this.

Family-numbers indicate the route of the mtDNA (today!).

In which way should Dosage-Profiles and -Indices "work"? I use an index which is inspired by Dosage-Indices and it works for my purposes.

zinn21
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Postby zinn21 » Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:42 pm

I don't know if they flat don't work. I think dosage is a good general indicator of racing distance aptitude. It's not foolproof but what is in this game?

parlo
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Postby parlo » Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:19 am

zinn21 wrote:... dosage is a good general indicator of racing distance aptitude. It's not foolproof but what is in this game?


I agree. New Dosage comprehensively describes distance aptitude, not "general quality" or "class" as some enthusiasts may think and Dr. Roman proclaims when he writes that there is a tendency of higher class horses having a higher than average dosage-point-total.

Whether "New Dosage" will still be neccessary, if the "C/T"-gene-combination of a certain horse is generally known, is another question. But even this natural index is not "foolproof", as there shall be "C/C"-winners of the Belmont Stakes in recent times according to @brogers.

Barcaldine
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Postby Barcaldine » Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:27 am

All of these commercial gimmicks, including Bruce Lowe's numbering system which isn't, are about as accurate in predicting, or even explaining, aptitude and/or success as a roll of the dice. They are all fatally flawed and are apt to produce counter-productive results.

As an example of how Dosage can completely mislead a believer can be seen in the profiles of two champions. JOHN HENRY, who could handle 12 furlongs with aplomb, has the DI/CD of a sprinter (according to Romans), while the top-class sprinter KONA GOLD should have been a marathoner based on his "numbers."

John Henry--13-4-9-2-0 (28) DI = 3.31 CD = 1.00

Kona Gold--8-2-14-5-1 (30) DI = 1.31 CD = 0.37


Dosage and Nicking recommendations all ignore female contributions. This fact is, by itself, sufficient to dismiss them as bogus. There are many other reasons which make clear to any logical person why these "drive-through products" are a waste of time and money.

DDT
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Postby DDT » Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:32 am

Barc

You are entitled to your opinion and if a person wants to obtain the advice of Alan Porter they have to pay for it. I notice you have not posted any of your theories on breeding. Dosage may be a waste of time, but since 1929 only a handful of winners of the Derby and Belmont were not qualified on dosage. There will always be exceptions, however, it does not make it bunk. I have not said I believe in dosage, but if my choice in the Kentucky Derby and the Belmont is not qualified on dosage I just might change my play. What people utilize to plan a mating is much more than asking you for an opinion. People can spend their time and money on what they choose without regard to your opinions.

DDT

Barcaldine
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Postby Barcaldine » Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:24 am

Duh.

Perhaps you aren't aware that the reason many Derby winners "qualify" under Dosage is that Dr. Roman added chefs AFTER THE FACT. That's like giving away driver's licenses to people who failed the written test, but were allowed to correct their answers. Voila! A passing grade.

The same phenomenon is also true of nicking models. You will notice in the Blood-Horse, for example, that stakes winners with A++ grades are highlighted in bold-type. These grades were awarded AFTER the win, AFTER their addition to the skimpy databank. What the BH, and other publications which follow this lead, doesn't do is publish the letter grade AT THE TIME OF CONCEPTION. That reporting would be far more insightful. Matings decided on the basis of Nick ratings obviously are made before the mares are bred and can't be based on FUTURE results.

I don't give any credence to Nicksters or Dr. Dosage. They are promoters whose primary goal is to make money. There are plenty of simpletons who are willing to pay for the bogus information. Apparently you fall into that category.

As for my own theories, I subscribe to old-school practices which have worked. I've been studying pedigrees in depth for the better part of 50 years and have drawn my own conclusions. Further, my buying and mating decisions are based on a combination of factors, including conformation , temperament, soundness and marketability. Im still around so something must be working.

DDT
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Postby DDT » Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:08 pm

Barcaldine

It must be nice being the only non-simpleton on earth, and you need that high opinion of yourself because as I see it not many people agree with you, so you should stay positive. I did not want this to drop to a name calling thread, but that is the preferred conduct when you are a know it all. By the way, if anyone wanted to use the local witch doctor to cast a spell on a mating, why not, what is that to you? Oh, that's right, you are the know it all and you happen to disagree, so anybody who uses it is stupid.

DDT

parlo
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Postby parlo » Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:45 pm

Barcaldine wrote:... Dr. Roman added chefs AFTER THE FACT. ....


It took Dr. Roman some 3 years to promote MONSUN and it can't be explained why he didn't promote SURUMU long before and still hasn't (- well his system is US-centered, and speed-centered as there are only few route races in the US to assign "S"- or "P"-aptitudes).

Off course he promotes "after the fact", because a sire must qualify for sure and not just on first notion. But a breeder can decide on first notion / inspiration / observation bearing his own risk of error with his matings.

Barcaldine
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Postby Barcaldine » Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:10 pm

Here's an excellent review of Dosage with which I wholeheartedly agree:

Dosage as a science is a piece of witch-doctorness that has been discredited by every reputable geneticist who has ever reviewed the canons of this "science," as put forth by Dr. Roman. Here are the reasons that it is a bunch of hooey, about as valid as reviewing chicken entrails:

1. Dosage is based on a system of "chefs-de-race," which involves reviewing only the males in a horse's pedigree. That's right, the Dosage system completely ignores the females in a horse's pedigree, giving no weight whatsoever to 50 percent of the inheritance a horse receives! The Dosage system completely ignores females in the pedigree. Pretends they don't exist. How's that for science?

2. Dosage is based on the subjective evaluation of Dr. Roman, his judgement of whether a stallion is an influence for "brilliance," for "classic," for "stamina," or whatever. This judgement is entirely subjective, not based on any consistent published objective criteria. Nor is it fixed: Dr. Roman can, and has, re-classified stallions in terms of their influence if he finds that maintaining them in the class he first put them in throws his calculations off.

3. Dr. Roman juggles the classifications to make the data fit his theory. Some years back, one of the Derby winners (Aysheba, I think) had a dosage index well above 5.00-- and according to Dr. Roman, no horse is supposed to be able to win the Derby if he has a Dosage above 4.0. So what did Dr. Roman do? He went back and re-classified a couple of stallions in Alysheba's pedigree as influences for stamina rather than brilliance, and hey presto! The recalculated Dosage Index for Alysheba was less than 4.00. He fit!

Dosage is, in a word, hooey. Reputable geneticists get a real howl out of Dr. Roman and his "science." There is nothing valid about it

Barcaldine
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Postby Barcaldine » Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:19 pm

And here's another, written by my dear friend, the late Don Engel:


Dosage and Its Fatal Flaws

This article appeared in The T I A Newsletter, September, 1997.

Secretariat has been named a chef-de-race.

Does anyone care?

Well, yes. The Daily Racing Form devoted two-thirds of a page to the news, in the form of a "Bloodlines" column by Ed Fontaine. So there must be some handful of people out there who are still laboring to work out dosage calculations, all the way to the second decimal place.

It's no secret that breeders will wander far into the outer regions of the occult in their search for the Magic Bullet of Mating (note the great popularity of nicking), but this dosage thing is out on the other side of that.

As it is presently practiced, dosage was developed by Dr. Steven A. Roman, Ph. D., of Richmond, Tex., who otherwise appears to be a sensible and reasonable man.

The heart of the dosage business is the roster of chefs-de-race, the 139 sires whose distance-siring tendencies provide the foundation of the program. The Dosage Index and Center of Distribution are calculated from the mix of chefs in the first four generations of a horse's pedigree.

Roman maintains a list of chefs and periodically adds a new name, whenever he has determined to his satisfaction the distance tendencies of the descendants of an influential sire. The goal of dosage, Roman points out, is not to determine how good a runner a horse will be but to determine his best distance.

Thus, if dosage works and you get the numbers right, you could wind up with a runner that gets the desired distance, but slowly. (Of course, any horse can get a classic distance if he runs slowly enough.)

The best use of dosage, in other words, is to check the mating you've already chosen on the basis of quality to make sure you don't breed a four-furlong flash or a two-mile plodder.

Fair enough, if you accept Roman's calculation of the probable best distances for the descendants of those chefs de race.

You can believe that Roman has worked at it. He's a scientist, and he doesn't install a new chef until he's satisfied that the sire stamps his descendents' stamina in a consistent pattern.

Having made that calculation, Roman then places the chef in one of five categories ranging from "brilliant" (sprinters) to "professional" (routers). Sometimes Roman assigns a chef to two categories. Such is the case with Secretariat, who is classified as both "intermediate" and "classic."

A great deal depends upon Roman's ability to make accurate category assignments. Since the final calculation is carried out to two decimal places, there's no room for guesswork or estimates.

So far so good, maybe.

However, the next step--the first in the actual calculation--is more likely to produce hysterical laughter than respect.

As in, "You do what?"

What you do next is ignore (a) all the females and (b) all the non-chef sires in the first four generations of the horse being dosed. That instantly eliminates a minimum of 50 percent of the horses contributing to the subject horse. Since most horses' pedigrees aren't jammed with chefs, it also eliminates a fair number of the sires in the pedigree.

For example, a dosage calculation for Bertrando, an Eclipse Award winner now at stud in California, would consider just five of the 30 horses in the first four generations of his pedigree. That's 16.7 percent of Bertrando's pedigree. That other 83.3 percent is just ignored.

On the other hand, a calculation for the royally-bred A. P. Indy would consider 11 of the 30, consigning only 19 (63.3 percent) to a state of non-influence.

Point values are assigned to the chefs in the pedigree--more to the close-up sires--and the result is calculated to the second decimal place.

How can anyone take this seriously?

Barcaldine
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Postby Barcaldine » Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:41 pm

Given the quantity of work involved in developing his version of Dosage, I would have imagined Dr. Roman to be an expert in the field of statistics, or at least, mathematics. Wrong!

Veterinary science? Nope

How about genetics or biology? Negative.

Agriculture? Animal husbandry? Agronomics? Not on your life.

No, Dr. Dosage received his doctoral degree in Organic Chemistry. No question that he must be a bright man, but I fail to see how a background in carbon studies qualifies him as an authority on horse pedigrees any more than a DVM is normally considered a professional ballerina.

Tappiano
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Postby Tappiano » Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:27 am

What does a major or degree in college have to do with someone's field of specialty? That's so 1960's. I cannot think of a single co worker in any I.T. department I have ever worked in who were math or computer science majors. I don't even have a degree, my late husband never had a degree and that sure never stopped multi million/billion dollar corporations from thinking we were quite capably qualified for doing our jobs. I'm also a published technical writer on analytical applications and databases and I never took a single course on those. Did not stop IBM and Microsoft from paying me.

Your imagination could sure use a nice big purge from all the grey matter that's clouded your judgment. You sure do protest too much.

The only thing I see you doing is flipping horses just like someone flips houses.

Fireslam
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Postby Fireslam » Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:28 am

Geez, Tappiano, I agree with you.

As far as the dosage being changed after the Derby, so what?? thats the whole freaking point, to put the stallions in the correct catagories. If a stallion shows that he can indeed produce distance horses, why not move him to the correct catagory?

Some people here flap their lips just to hear themselves speak, I guess because no one else cares to listen.

Barcaldine
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Postby Barcaldine » Sun Jul 08, 2012 9:16 am

Tappiano, you're missing the point. Roman flaunts his PhD to lend credence to his commercial products, but you won't find any reference to Organic Chemistry in any of his literature. His degree has nothing to do with what he's selling. It's misleading marketing of a misleading product claim.

Fireslam, have you ever posted any original thoughts other than dissing? I think not. Do you ever stop and read the tripe you do write? You must not, or you couldnt possibly make that kind of statement with a straight face.

As several of the articles I posted made clear, Roman makes the data fit his theory by adding or adjusting chefs AFTER the Derby has been run. He does this to justify Dosage to the few remaining people on this planet who haven't seen the light.

You need to read some or all of the articles listed before you spout off again about something you so clearly don't understand.

Tappiano
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Postby Tappiano » Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:12 am

Dr Roman earned his title, I don't care what field it's in. I'm not buying anyone's dosage/nicking product, the only thing I ever buy as it pertains to thoroughbreds are items directly relevant to my horses and are from equineline. Everything else lives in my head.

Of course he goes back and adjusts his numbers and he should. He's pulled the trigger on a target that will move the second he's finished. Try as he might and try as anyone might, nobody can account for all the really awful decisions that some breeders make when it comes to matings. Do you think perhaps he should go alter his theory to include the fact that some farms breed their stallions to any mare with working ovaries? Let's face it if there are 200 foals by a stallion in a given year compared to one with half that number the odds favor the stallion with the higher number in some ways and negates it in others.

The only thing that qualified ARTHUR YOUNG to show GEORGE WASHINGTON about what crops should be planted in the US after the revolutionary war was his travels around England and Ireland and that turned out pretty darn well for us here.