Footstepsinthesand won the 2000 Guineas for Aiden O'Brien and Kieren Fallon. He is also the sire of one of the favourites for tomorrow's 1000 Guineas - Maid's Causeway.Giant's Causeway stud fee boost
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Galileo1998
- Yearling
- Posts: 58
- Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 7:26 am
Galileo1998 wrote:Giant's Causeway just had his first classic winner
I have never been so thrilled with a race result as I am with today's 2000 Guineas. Giant's Causeway was my all-time favorite racehorse, and for Footstepsinthesand to win today was just too special. Giant has now proven his ability to get the big horse (Shamardal, Footsteps, and Maids Causeway), now he just needs some more good dirt horses!
What if Maids Causeway wins the 1000 guineas and Noble Causeway wins the Derby? He'll stand for a million dollars. Just kidding but I don't doubt the fee will be outrageous.
Of course, he just might be the son capable of replacing his sire Storm Cat because no other son has confirmed this capability.
Of course, he just might be the son capable of replacing his sire Storm Cat because no other son has confirmed this capability.
Anyone remember Our Emblem... back when they went from $4,000 in Maryland to $30,000 at Taylor Made? Interesting article here: www.ThoroughbredReview.com/ThePowerOfOne.htm
ATR, I respect many of your opinions concerning stallions, however this may be one of the absolute worst comparison's ever made.
While it is much too soon to stamp Giant's Causeway an overwhelming success, it is also too soon to stamp him a potential disappointment. Especially, in the commercial market.
Your comparison to Our Emblem is flawed in so many ways there is no way I can touch on them all... but I will start with a couple very, very important ones:
Our Emblem had a dismal beginning to his career, thus was shipped off to PA. Giant's Causeway has had a pretty darn successful start to his career, even if he does have a few thousand foals in these first crops.
Our Emblem had two horses hit in his "big" year... one was War Emblem, the other was Private Emblem (I think... it was something like that). War Emblem was an obvious aberration to the norm. Giant's Causeway has at least 4 big horses in this, his first, crop.
Our Emblem came back to Kentucky to stand for an increased fee of $30,000 (and struggled to get the 92 mares you reference). Our Emblem's fee dropped like a rock for one of the most important reasons in this industry... lack of demand.
Giant's Causeway's fee never dipped below the $75,000 which it was at for a brief time. Also, Giant's Causeway's fee has been increased twice this year as a result of increased demand (and more probably a result of marketing because his book has been "full" for months).
On another note... aside from the comparisons, you make a statement in dramatizing the "importance" of Our Emblem that is questionable at best.
I was one of War Emblem's biggest fans because I own a Lord At War mare and two other Lord At War granddaughters. The stature of Lord At War as a broodmare sire would have grown considerably had War Emblem won the Triple Crown, thus my mares stood to gain both in value and in perception. However, as biased in his favor as I might have been, no one will ever convince me, or 99% of those who saw the race that "...were it not for an infamous stumble at the start of the Belmont, (War Emblem) very likely would have been the first Triple Crown winner since 1978."
On a positive note... at least you have dropped the Silver Ghost ruse and become more forthright. Responses to your opinions will probably be more honest and respectful because of this.
Of course, at least you didn't wave the "FuPeg and Giant's Causeway are bums" banner like certain other posters. I wonder where those posters are now... I bet they have crawled under there rocks and are trying to figure out how they are going to play the exotics on Derby Day and leave out the sons of these two stallions. It sure will be hard to get a trifecta featuring the sons of Successful Appeal and Northern Afleet (althought the latter has a very, very real chance of having a son hit the board). (Isn't it also somewhat interesting that it is possible FuPeg's best sons won't even be in the Derby?)
While it is much too soon to stamp Giant's Causeway an overwhelming success, it is also too soon to stamp him a potential disappointment. Especially, in the commercial market.
Your comparison to Our Emblem is flawed in so many ways there is no way I can touch on them all... but I will start with a couple very, very important ones:
Our Emblem had a dismal beginning to his career, thus was shipped off to PA. Giant's Causeway has had a pretty darn successful start to his career, even if he does have a few thousand foals in these first crops.
Our Emblem had two horses hit in his "big" year... one was War Emblem, the other was Private Emblem (I think... it was something like that). War Emblem was an obvious aberration to the norm. Giant's Causeway has at least 4 big horses in this, his first, crop.
Our Emblem came back to Kentucky to stand for an increased fee of $30,000 (and struggled to get the 92 mares you reference). Our Emblem's fee dropped like a rock for one of the most important reasons in this industry... lack of demand.
Giant's Causeway's fee never dipped below the $75,000 which it was at for a brief time. Also, Giant's Causeway's fee has been increased twice this year as a result of increased demand (and more probably a result of marketing because his book has been "full" for months).
On another note... aside from the comparisons, you make a statement in dramatizing the "importance" of Our Emblem that is questionable at best.
I was one of War Emblem's biggest fans because I own a Lord At War mare and two other Lord At War granddaughters. The stature of Lord At War as a broodmare sire would have grown considerably had War Emblem won the Triple Crown, thus my mares stood to gain both in value and in perception. However, as biased in his favor as I might have been, no one will ever convince me, or 99% of those who saw the race that "...were it not for an infamous stumble at the start of the Belmont, (War Emblem) very likely would have been the first Triple Crown winner since 1978."
On a positive note... at least you have dropped the Silver Ghost ruse and become more forthright. Responses to your opinions will probably be more honest and respectful because of this.
Of course, at least you didn't wave the "FuPeg and Giant's Causeway are bums" banner like certain other posters. I wonder where those posters are now... I bet they have crawled under there rocks and are trying to figure out how they are going to play the exotics on Derby Day and leave out the sons of these two stallions. It sure will be hard to get a trifecta featuring the sons of Successful Appeal and Northern Afleet (althought the latter has a very, very real chance of having a son hit the board). (Isn't it also somewhat interesting that it is possible FuPeg's best sons won't even be in the Derby?)
Giant
It,s seems that he is able to get a classic one on the turf, now looking
in a weeks time. About the turf there was no question after last years
shamardal Still regretting that his owners took him away from his up to then trainer and pushed him over in the middle east.
Now the dirt?????.
Ben
in a weeks time. About the turf there was no question after last years
shamardal Still regretting that his owners took him away from his up to then trainer and pushed him over in the middle east.
Now the dirt?????.
Ben
It sure will be hard to get a trifecta featuring the sons of Successful Appeal and Northern Afleet (althought the latter has a very, very real chance of having a son hit the board). (Isn't it also somewhat interesting that it is possible FuPeg's best sons won't even be in the Derby?)
Northern Afleet has a very real chance of having a son win the race; and Afleet Alex has a better chance of hitting the board than Noble Causeway, Andromeda's Hero, or Bandini do.
Who are the FuPeg sons not in the Derby that are any good?
-llbean
llbean wrote:Who are the FuPeg sons not in the Derby that are any good?
-llbean
I know what you are implying but it's May of his first three year old crop--that's sort of a stunning statement. You might as well say "I know he's had a bunch of legitimate horses on the Derby trail and he still has two who are going to make the race including one who will be favored to win--and it's the race which everyone wants to breed for and where the big money is--but what else has the bum done?
By commercial standards, he's had an incredible first year--and there still may be much more to come.
Maids Causeway just finished 2nd in the English 1000 on a course a little less firm than yesterday. This filly reminds me a ton of her sire- neither had brilliant acceleration, but both were very tough and genuine. Like him, she may do well over 10 furlongs. Regardless, what a great weekend for Giant's Causeway!
KAL, I think you're missing the forest for the trees... We're not saying that Giant's Causeway and Our Emblem's scenarios are 100% parallel and/or exact in every way. What we're saying is that breeders should be leery of paying stud fees that spike after the succes of a limited sample of their progeny. In this case, it spiked after Noble Causeway's 2nd place finish in the Florida Derby.
We were also trying to get breeders to take a look at the big picture when selecting stallion seasons, not just the success of one or two runners. Buying seasons based on limited information often results in financial ruin, much like owner's who spent $30,000 on Our Emblem in 2003 are about to face.
And yes, I agree that when it's all said and done, Giant's Causeway will be a MUCH more successful sire than Our Emblem. On those terms, a comparison is absurd. However, I don't believe that Giant's Causeway will stay anywhere near the $200,000 level, and investors who spend that amount in 05 or 06 are placing themselves at risk, much like those who spent $30,000 for Our Emblem in 03. This is where the comparison becomes useful.
And even though Private Emblem was on the scene, it was War Emblem who created the hype that led to the $30,000 fee. If you take War Emblem out of the equation, Our Emblem may have never even returned to KY, regardless of Private Emblem's accomplishments.
We were also trying to get breeders to take a look at the big picture when selecting stallion seasons, not just the success of one or two runners. Buying seasons based on limited information often results in financial ruin, much like owner's who spent $30,000 on Our Emblem in 2003 are about to face.
And yes, I agree that when it's all said and done, Giant's Causeway will be a MUCH more successful sire than Our Emblem. On those terms, a comparison is absurd. However, I don't believe that Giant's Causeway will stay anywhere near the $200,000 level, and investors who spend that amount in 05 or 06 are placing themselves at risk, much like those who spent $30,000 for Our Emblem in 03. This is where the comparison becomes useful.
And even though Private Emblem was on the scene, it was War Emblem who created the hype that led to the $30,000 fee. If you take War Emblem out of the equation, Our Emblem may have never even returned to KY, regardless of Private Emblem's accomplishments.
llbean:
Roman Ruler
Fusaichi Samurai
and I have heard very good things about Scandanavia and Saywaan
Additionally, there were a couple stellar looking foals in this year's two year old crop. It will be interesting to see how they progress.
As I eluded to, I think Afleet Alex has a very, very live shot to at least hit the board... but, where are the other Northern Afleet's or the Successful Appeal's? Not degrading them in any way, I think they have done incredibly well, especially given their crop size and quality of mare... however, at this point (or as FOS would say, "... All Things Considered"), one must give the nod, however begrudging, to FuPeg and Giant's Causeway as being more exciting and more successful at the top levels (both on track and in the sales ring).
My primary point, in this regard, was to pretty much "call out" those who so adamantly denigated FuPeg and Giant's Causeway. Those extremely vocal posters have grown amazingly quiet now that both are exceeding any normal expectations.
Mike, my thoughts exactly... I cannot help but think the Giant's Causeways will like those Aussie strips (also, I think big things can be expected to continue for More Than Ready down there also). In fact, they may take to Royal Randwick and Canterbury with as much gusto as I did.
ef and BenB... thanks for the updates... do you think the top European outfits will be seeking Giant's Causeway foals at sale or to breed to him in the upcoming years? I would think... and we know they have the funds to pay whatever they want. Now, it will be interesting to see how Noble Causeway does next weekend. Can you imagine the Coolmore marketing if Noble Causeway hits the board in the Derby?
ATR... okay, I'll somewhat grant your point... but will hold that my interpretation, as well as many who read the "comparison" will see it much as I did.
I also fully agree that it was the "excitement" surrounding War Emblem which lead to the move, the purchase price, and the stud fee (as opposed to any momentum the ill-fated Private Emblem provided). Of course, it would be remiss that very, very few shares were actually sold at $30,000... you have to subtract the shareholders, the "bonuses", and the "deals" (of which, I have been told, were plentiful).
We can argue the validity of fees all day long. I personally cannot afford or justify the G.C. fee, of course, I don't have the mare who warrants such a breeding or have the bank account necessary to partake of such risk. Those who have both probably can find enough in the success of G.C. to date which elicits enough excitement for them. Additionally, the "new" fee for G.C. is, as has been previously mentioned, a primary function of future marketing. I imagine our good friends in Australia can expect a considerable fee hike... and many will probably be happy to pay it.
Of course, I still maintain that a person breeding to either Giant's Causeway or FuPeg, even at the increased fee (provided they have the adequate mare), will stand a better chance to see some return than the person who chose to breed to Our Emblem at any price. Sure the risk is much greater... but so is the reward... and the % of those reaching profitability, the median, and the average all weigh in favor of Giant's Causeway (I believe... info is old).
Personally, I have been critical of the size books at Coolmore. I have even been critical of their division leaders as being somewhat "false", but I don't think, at this point, that anyone will be confusing FuPeg, or even Giant's Causeway, with Stravinsky.
Hey, I proclaimed that FuPeg would not be in the top 7 of the Freshmen sires list (and I also claimed that More Than Ready would be a division leader). I decried that High Yield would be a division leader as a Freshman. I also thought Yes Its True would be the surprise of the group. Successful Appeal was an incredibly pleasant surprise and I was quite disappointed with High Yield, somewhat disappointed with More Than Ready, mildly disappointed with Giant's Causeway (although his foals seemed to be improving at year's end), and quite intrigued by the success of the FuPeg's. Oh... and I also stated that I thought Giant's Causeway would be a better bet to make it than FuPeg... now that is looking a little suspect, isn't it.
Roman Ruler
Fusaichi Samurai
and I have heard very good things about Scandanavia and Saywaan
Additionally, there were a couple stellar looking foals in this year's two year old crop. It will be interesting to see how they progress.
As I eluded to, I think Afleet Alex has a very, very live shot to at least hit the board... but, where are the other Northern Afleet's or the Successful Appeal's? Not degrading them in any way, I think they have done incredibly well, especially given their crop size and quality of mare... however, at this point (or as FOS would say, "... All Things Considered"), one must give the nod, however begrudging, to FuPeg and Giant's Causeway as being more exciting and more successful at the top levels (both on track and in the sales ring).
My primary point, in this regard, was to pretty much "call out" those who so adamantly denigated FuPeg and Giant's Causeway. Those extremely vocal posters have grown amazingly quiet now that both are exceeding any normal expectations.
Mike, my thoughts exactly... I cannot help but think the Giant's Causeways will like those Aussie strips (also, I think big things can be expected to continue for More Than Ready down there also). In fact, they may take to Royal Randwick and Canterbury with as much gusto as I did.
ef and BenB... thanks for the updates... do you think the top European outfits will be seeking Giant's Causeway foals at sale or to breed to him in the upcoming years? I would think... and we know they have the funds to pay whatever they want. Now, it will be interesting to see how Noble Causeway does next weekend. Can you imagine the Coolmore marketing if Noble Causeway hits the board in the Derby?
ATR... okay, I'll somewhat grant your point... but will hold that my interpretation, as well as many who read the "comparison" will see it much as I did.
I also fully agree that it was the "excitement" surrounding War Emblem which lead to the move, the purchase price, and the stud fee (as opposed to any momentum the ill-fated Private Emblem provided). Of course, it would be remiss that very, very few shares were actually sold at $30,000... you have to subtract the shareholders, the "bonuses", and the "deals" (of which, I have been told, were plentiful).
We can argue the validity of fees all day long. I personally cannot afford or justify the G.C. fee, of course, I don't have the mare who warrants such a breeding or have the bank account necessary to partake of such risk. Those who have both probably can find enough in the success of G.C. to date which elicits enough excitement for them. Additionally, the "new" fee for G.C. is, as has been previously mentioned, a primary function of future marketing. I imagine our good friends in Australia can expect a considerable fee hike... and many will probably be happy to pay it.
Of course, I still maintain that a person breeding to either Giant's Causeway or FuPeg, even at the increased fee (provided they have the adequate mare), will stand a better chance to see some return than the person who chose to breed to Our Emblem at any price. Sure the risk is much greater... but so is the reward... and the % of those reaching profitability, the median, and the average all weigh in favor of Giant's Causeway (I believe... info is old).
Personally, I have been critical of the size books at Coolmore. I have even been critical of their division leaders as being somewhat "false", but I don't think, at this point, that anyone will be confusing FuPeg, or even Giant's Causeway, with Stravinsky.
Hey, I proclaimed that FuPeg would not be in the top 7 of the Freshmen sires list (and I also claimed that More Than Ready would be a division leader). I decried that High Yield would be a division leader as a Freshman. I also thought Yes Its True would be the surprise of the group. Successful Appeal was an incredibly pleasant surprise and I was quite disappointed with High Yield, somewhat disappointed with More Than Ready, mildly disappointed with Giant's Causeway (although his foals seemed to be improving at year's end), and quite intrigued by the success of the FuPeg's. Oh... and I also stated that I thought Giant's Causeway would be a better bet to make it than FuPeg... now that is looking a little suspect, isn't it.
At this point, I wonder if Fu Peg isnt producing the better individuals overall. I know we have over 200 horses each year go thru where I work, and I know of about 5 Fu Pegs offhand that we've had....there have been no Giants Causeways. Our clients just havent bought them, for whatever reason.
I think Fu Peg is the next "sire". His kids have just some special quality....
When Roman Ruler arrived at our farm as a "kindergardener", he was so special, right from the start. We had more expensive horses, but when he gallopped by, you'd just say....whew.....
And Fu Peg's had one after the other after the other. I am a fan.
I think Fu Peg is the next "sire". His kids have just some special quality....
When Roman Ruler arrived at our farm as a "kindergardener", he was so special, right from the start. We had more expensive horses, but when he gallopped by, you'd just say....whew.....
And Fu Peg's had one after the other after the other. I am a fan.