Buckpasser in the X

[stancaris]

For a more recent perspective on Haun's work see her newest book The X Fator Book III--- The Mystery of Secretariat's Large Heart.

[Pan Zareta]

For a more recent perspective on Haun's work see her newest book The X Fator Book III--- The Mystery of Secretariat's Large Heart.

The title is actually The X Factor, Solving the Mystery of Secretariat's Heart.

Not sure I want to waste the $$ or the shelf space (no electronic version available) and there are as yet no reviews at Amazon. Tell me, does she address the utter lack of genome-based evidence to support her previously published hypothesis that heart size is primarily controlled by a gene or gene complex on the X? Does she discuss any of the TB cardio studies that have been reported since her 2d book was published? Other than maybe from Dr. Fregin, are there any endorsements from the scientific sector or industry luminaries that don't date back at least 10 years?

Personally, I find most offensive her far more blatant than ever exploitation of Secretariat's enduring appeal to market her work.

[DDT]

Stan

After 6 pages your real motive comes to the surface, the X factor. You do understand that Haun's theory has been debunked genetically. As of this writing no genes going to heart size have been discovered, mutated or otherwise, on the X chromosome.

DDT

[stancaris]

Not sure I want to waste money on that book. Tell me do they actually have proof that the X chromosome is not important in Broodmare sire success? Or is it the same stuff you have used as evidence-- the variants of elite performance have mostly been found on the autosomes which proves nothing about the X chromosome.

[DDT]

Stan

You are at it again, nobody on this thread has denied the IMPORTANCE of the X chromosome what we have denied is your statements and apparent belief that the X chromosome is a PRIMARY factor to broodmare sire success in the case of Buckpasser.

DDT

[stancaris]

By the way, it stands to reason that most of the variants that relate to elite performance were discovered on the autosomes simply because there are 31 pairs of autosomes in the horse and only one pair of sex chromosomes.

So maybe that one variant on the X that Brogers refers to that reached statistical signficance and is related to elite performance goes a long way in contributing to the power of the X chromosome.

Refer back to my post on May 27, 2013 where I analyzed all the stats of Buckpasser reported by David Dink in various positions in a pedigree. If that analysis doesn't point to the X chromosome as being important to broodmare sire success and also success along X passing positions, then prove it wrong. You have not yet supplied any substantial evidence to the contrary.

How do you explain how Buckpasser got an 11.99 number in the P8 position, an X passing position? If not the X chromosome then what? All the horses from which Dink derived that 11.99 number carried a portion of Buckpasser's X chromosome. None of the horses stats in P1, P2, P3, P4, P5 and P7 in the fourth generation got ZERO genes from Buckpasser's X.

[stancaris]

that last sentence above should read all the horses in those positions did not receive any genes from Buckpasser's X chromosome. They received Zero from Buckpasser's X simply because they were not in a position to get any of his X.

[stancaris]

DDT What thread have you been reading? Pan Zareta continually has stated that at best the X chromosome only plays a minor role in broodmare sire success.

[Pan Zareta]

Stan, P4 is a facultative X passing position in 4th gen.

You're flailing. Swinging the same claims around over and over. Everything in your most recent post has been addressed before. The only way you are able to make your case is to parse facts out of context and cherry pick evidence that confirms your false bias.

[stancaris]

Pan Zareta: Your wrong! If you look at the pedigree chart that Dink uses he shows Bold Ruler's pedigree and the P4 position in the fourth generation is that of The Tetrarch. The Tetrarch cannot give any part of his X to Bold Ruler. Any part of that X will go along to Mumtaz Mahal, then Mumtaz Begum, then to Nasrullah. However, it stops with Nasrullah because Nasrullah then transmits his Y chromosome to Bold Ruler. Therefore, Bold Ruler receives zero genes that were present in The Tetrarchs X chromosome.

This thread is really going on for much too long. You have your view and I have mine. Just refer to my May 27, 2013 post at 2:06PM. That basically is the best evidence I have seen that backs up the idea that the X chromosome is important to broodmare sire success and Dinks quote gives further credence to the X chromosome's importance.

Lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

How important is the X chromosome for the success of a broodmare sire?

a) not important at all b)at best it plays a minor role c)it is important but not that important to the overall success of a racehorse d) it is a contributing factor to the success of a broodmare sire e) it is of primary importance f) a and b g) d and e f) all of the above g)some of the above

[Pan Zareta]

Stan, it's a matter of fact not opinion that P4 in gen 4 and P2 in gen 3 are facultative, i.e. contingency-dependent, X passing positions.

[stancaris]

Pan Zareta: I guess you dazzled me with the word facultative but the bottom line is still the same. Other than pseudo-autosomal recombinations the X chromosome's genes are not sent to Bold Ruler from those positions.

Can Bold Ruler receive genes from the X chromosome of The Tetrarch?

a) not at all b) maybe a few c) many genes can get to him d)perhaps but they are not vital to Bold Ruler's overall success as a great runner and sire e)Bold Ruler cannot get those genes on The Tetrarch's X so he did not become a breed shaping sire f) the y chromosome is much more important than the X

How good is the idea that the X marks the spot for broodmare sire dominance? a) that is a far fetched idea and has no basis whatsoever b) not a bad idea Stan, but genomic research says otherwise
c)Dink's stats prove nothing d)Brogers statement on X variants is vague and contradictory

[Pan Zareta]

Can Bold Ruler receive genes from the X chromosome of The Tetrarch?

Nope. Answer "a". He doesn't meet the contingency.

ETA-Given that your false premise is all about the X it's rather amazing you don't recognize that the contingency is GENDER and that P2 in 3d gen and P4 in 4th gen are X passing positions in FEMALES. A male's, Bold Ruler's, pedigree was used to illustrate the position nomenclature but the sample population Dink used for his study was not restricted by gender, just by foaling years.

[stancaris]

Pan Zareta: That's a good point and interpreting the data from those two contingency positions lends further support to the value of the X chromosome of Buckpasser.

Look at the data in the P2 in the third generation for Buckpasser. He gets a number of 4.75 in that spot which is above the average 3.74 that Dink refers to as the benchmark. And like you said, thats an X passing position for females. However, in the P1 and P3 positions in the third generation Buckpasser's numbers are 2.32 and 3.32 which is below the benchmark average number of 3.74. Why is it that horses in Dink's study came in below average in the P1 and P3 positions? Those horses, be they male or female, could not get any of Buckpasser's X chromosome in those positions.

Perhaps what you think is a false premise isn't false at all.

[CosMos]

A carpenter, a school teacher, and scientist were traveling by train through Scotland when they saw a black sheep through the window of the train.
"Aha," said the carpenter with a smile, "I see that Scottish sheep are black."
"Hmm," said the school teacher, "You mean that some Scottish sheep are black."
"No," said the scientist glumly, "All we know is that there is at least one sheep in Scotland, and that at least one side of that one sheep is black."