Another question that comes to mind is that Buckpasser averaged less than 30 foals per year for his 11 year breeding career. Today he would have bred 125 mares per year. Take Smart Strike as an example, he has an AEI of around 2.1. Wonder what that would look like if we just used his top 30 foals each year?
Claiborne was the cream of the crop back then with broodmares. I cannot imagine how elite the books were for Buckpasser and Bold Ruler. Today other factors drive the stats.
Secretariat and Buckpasser
Moderators: Roguelet, hpkingjr, WaveMaster, Lucy
contradictory
On Oct 25th 2011 at 1:38 PM Byron Rogers wrote:
"I think I said from my first post in this thread that there are important variants on the X chromosome for performance. Not sure I would call them "super genes" but I would call them "important alleles."
On Oct 20, 2011 on page 4 Byron Rogers wrote:
"But they are far from vital to the overall success of a racehorse."
That's a glaring contradiction: To say on the one hand that there are important variants on the X chromosome for performance and also call them "important alleles." And then to say they are far from vital to the overall success of a racehorse is a MAJOR CONTRADICTION.
How can you call these variants "important alleles" and also say they are far from vital to the overall success of a racehorse.
"I think I said from my first post in this thread that there are important variants on the X chromosome for performance. Not sure I would call them "super genes" but I would call them "important alleles."
On Oct 20, 2011 on page 4 Byron Rogers wrote:
"But they are far from vital to the overall success of a racehorse."
That's a glaring contradiction: To say on the one hand that there are important variants on the X chromosome for performance and also call them "important alleles." And then to say they are far from vital to the overall success of a racehorse is a MAJOR CONTRADICTION.
How can you call these variants "important alleles" and also say they are far from vital to the overall success of a racehorse.
vitality is a function of the X
Pan Zareta: Byron Rogers states that the variants on the X chromosome although he calls them "important alleles" are not vital to the overall success of a racehorse.
If these variants are important then they certainly are vital to the overall success of a racehorse.
Without an X chromosome there would be no horse at all because those individuals lacking the presence of at least one X chromosome never develop into an adult.
One more important question for you: You have stated that my contention that the X chromosome is important to broodmare sire success has no scientific basis whatsoever. Question follows:
Do you also believe that Haun's three books on the X factor have no scientific basis whatsoever? With this I mean didn't she supply a great deal of scientific evidence with the Electrocardiograms etc that at least the X chromosome has something to do with heart size or function even if it be a polygenic trait (not a single gene hypothesis as stated in her books)
If these variants are important then they certainly are vital to the overall success of a racehorse.
Without an X chromosome there would be no horse at all because those individuals lacking the presence of at least one X chromosome never develop into an adult.
One more important question for you: You have stated that my contention that the X chromosome is important to broodmare sire success has no scientific basis whatsoever. Question follows:
Do you also believe that Haun's three books on the X factor have no scientific basis whatsoever? With this I mean didn't she supply a great deal of scientific evidence with the Electrocardiograms etc that at least the X chromosome has something to do with heart size or function even if it be a polygenic trait (not a single gene hypothesis as stated in her books)
Stan
I do not want to butt in here, however, Haun's scientific findings do nothing to point to a gene or genes carried on the X chromosome, she developed her theory based on her belief that the genes were located on the X. As of today, I am not aware of any reports that confirm the presence of a gene or genes going to heart size located on the X. If Haun had realized at the time that the important fact of her work was that superior performance can be related to heart size and that females have maternally imprinted genes that control heart size, the key here is not the X chromosome but being a female.
DDT
I do not want to butt in here, however, Haun's scientific findings do nothing to point to a gene or genes carried on the X chromosome, she developed her theory based on her belief that the genes were located on the X. As of today, I am not aware of any reports that confirm the presence of a gene or genes going to heart size located on the X. If Haun had realized at the time that the important fact of her work was that superior performance can be related to heart size and that females have maternally imprinted genes that control heart size, the key here is not the X chromosome but being a female.
DDT
http://trainermagazine.com/published-ar ... erformance
http://performancegenetics.com/what-a-g ... ooks-like/
http://performancegenetics.com/cardio-e ... ll-circle/
http://performancegenetics.com/performance-genes/
At the recent Pedigree & Genetics symposium four world respected equine geneticists - Dr Jamie Macleod, Dr Emmeline Hill, Dr Steve Tammariello and Dr Matthew Binns, all confirmed that the myth of the x-factor was exactly that....a myth. Three of the four geneticits mentioned above were part of the Horse Genome project that sequenced the horse's genome and Dr Binns co-wrote the original horse genome map.
While there may well be genes associated with large hearts, more specifically left ventricular size and wall mass, and indeed there will be genes that regulate heart stroke, there is no evidence whatsoever in their studies that the inheritance of such genes follows the mystical pattern as described in Marianna Haun's books.
It is romantic to think that the great mare Pocahontas has in some way weaved her magic through the maze of inheritance and recombination of genes, but it just doesn't work that way. Scientists who study heart size are now finding that the sire has just as much of a role in determining heart size of the resultant foal as the mare. As an example, in talking to quite a few of the companies that measure hearts they have mentioned independently that the stallion Tapit is almost homozygous for heart morphology with his colts and fillies getting a similar heart shape to his own. There is no fabled "x-factor" at work.
To answer your question about ear size, again another myth.
While I have to applaud her for her belief in something, what Marianna Haun wrote in her books doesn't work how she has described it and it has lead many breeders astray. Heart size and function looks to be polygenic and certainly outside the scope of something that relies totally on the x-chromosome.
Genetics is going to bring a lot of things to the table in the next few years and have a lot of misconceptions and myths like this put to bed.
brogers 19 Oct 2010 12:16 PM from the True Nicks website
http://performancegenetics.com/what-a-g ... ooks-like/
http://performancegenetics.com/cardio-e ... ll-circle/
http://performancegenetics.com/performance-genes/
At the recent Pedigree & Genetics symposium four world respected equine geneticists - Dr Jamie Macleod, Dr Emmeline Hill, Dr Steve Tammariello and Dr Matthew Binns, all confirmed that the myth of the x-factor was exactly that....a myth. Three of the four geneticits mentioned above were part of the Horse Genome project that sequenced the horse's genome and Dr Binns co-wrote the original horse genome map.
While there may well be genes associated with large hearts, more specifically left ventricular size and wall mass, and indeed there will be genes that regulate heart stroke, there is no evidence whatsoever in their studies that the inheritance of such genes follows the mystical pattern as described in Marianna Haun's books.
It is romantic to think that the great mare Pocahontas has in some way weaved her magic through the maze of inheritance and recombination of genes, but it just doesn't work that way. Scientists who study heart size are now finding that the sire has just as much of a role in determining heart size of the resultant foal as the mare. As an example, in talking to quite a few of the companies that measure hearts they have mentioned independently that the stallion Tapit is almost homozygous for heart morphology with his colts and fillies getting a similar heart shape to his own. There is no fabled "x-factor" at work.
To answer your question about ear size, again another myth.
While I have to applaud her for her belief in something, what Marianna Haun wrote in her books doesn't work how she has described it and it has lead many breeders astray. Heart size and function looks to be polygenic and certainly outside the scope of something that relies totally on the x-chromosome.
Genetics is going to bring a lot of things to the table in the next few years and have a lot of misconceptions and myths like this put to bed.
brogers 19 Oct 2010 12:16 PM from the True Nicks website
Latrioenne
Hpkingjr
You said, Buckpasser's third dam was Latrionne and then asked, isn't it possible that Latrioenne is the secret to Buckpasser's success?
Interestingly, Latroienne on the average also transmitted 12.5 percent of her X chromosome to Buckpasser.
Breeding Buckpasser back to Latrionne's female line has been a successful pattern and begot such outstanding horses as Numbered Account, Relaxing, and Playmate (Woodman's dam). One should note that all four of these carry Buckpasser in the X passing position.
Do you think that the X chromosome at best only plays a minor role in broodmare sire success?
You said, Buckpasser's third dam was Latrionne and then asked, isn't it possible that Latrioenne is the secret to Buckpasser's success?
Interestingly, Latroienne on the average also transmitted 12.5 percent of her X chromosome to Buckpasser.
Breeding Buckpasser back to Latrionne's female line has been a successful pattern and begot such outstanding horses as Numbered Account, Relaxing, and Playmate (Woodman's dam). One should note that all four of these carry Buckpasser in the X passing position.
Do you think that the X chromosome at best only plays a minor role in broodmare sire success?
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Pan Zareta
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Re: vitality is a function of the X
stancaris wrote:...If these variants are important then they certainly are vital to the overall success of a racehorse...
The relative importance of the x alleles within the scope of all alleles was laid out for you twice in simple but specific terms during 'The Mares in Great Sires' thread. There was no "contradiction" until you removed two words as employed in that thread from their original context and put them in an entirely different one.
What relevance the fact that "individuals lacking the presence of at least one x chromosome never develop into an adult" could have to this discussion escapes me. The same is true for the autosomes. A full diploid complement of nuclear chromosomes is a prerequisite for normal development.
Haun's data from ecg and u/s and pedigrees is circumstantial evidence that proves nothing about what's going on at the genomic level. Only genome-based evidence can do that and it indicates the x has nothing at all, mono- or polygenic, to do with cardiac size and/or function.
opinions
Pan Zareta: Your take on this matter boggles my mind. How can you say that the X chromosome at best only plays a minor role in broodmare sire success when in fact Byron Rogers clearly states that are variants on the X chromosome that relate to elite performance. He refers to these variants as "important alleles." And then goes on to say that they are not vital to the overall success of a racehorse.
That is a MAJOR CONTRADICTION.
OK, The X chromosome probably has nothing to do with heart size or function. That does not relegate it to a minor role in broodmare sire success.
That is a MAJOR CONTRADICTION.
OK, The X chromosome probably has nothing to do with heart size or function. That does not relegate it to a minor role in broodmare sire success.
buckpassers influence thru his daughters
Buckpasser was a tremendously influential broodmare sire. His daughters produced Slew O Gold, With Approval, Easy Goer, El Gran Señor, Plugged Nickel, Coastal, Touch Gold, Seeking the Gold, Miswaki, Woodman, Private Account, Fast Play, Believe It, etc.
Two daughters were Kentucky Broodmares of the Year: Relaxing 1989, who mothered Easy Goer, and Toll Both 1991 (who begot 7 stakes winners). A third daughter, Passing Mood, was Broodmare of the Year in Canada in 1989 primarily due to her son, With Approval and this happened before another son, Touch Gold won the Belmont Stakes in 1997.
Many other daughters of Buckpasser were good producers: Alluvial, Con Game, Numbered Account, Sex Appeal, Lassie Dear (second dam of AP Indy and Summer Squall), Spring Adieu, dam of Danehill, and Magic the third dam of Unbridled.
Stallions out of Buckpasser mares include the Broodmare Sire, Private Account who sired Hall of Famer, Personal Ensign who was Broodmare of the year in 1991. Another stallion, El Gran Señor, fathered the 2002 Broodmare of the Year, Toussaud.
Miswaki's daughter, Urban Sea, was Broodmare of the Year in England and Ireland in 2001 and her son, Galileo, is one of the top sires in the World and is becoming an outstanding Broodmare sire as well.
Buckpasser's daughter, Spring Adieu, is the second dam of Danehill who is the broodmare sire of Frankel, Horse of the Year in Europe in 2011 and 2012.
What do all of the above mentioned superior thoroughbreds have in common? THEY ALL CARRY BUCKPASSER IN THE X PASSING POSITION.
The above stats strongly support the idea that the X chromosome plays more than just minor role in broodmare sire success.
A fundamental inheritance pattern also supports the above idea --The X CHROMOSOME OF A SIRE IS TRANSMITTED TO ALL OF HIS DAUGHTERS AND NONE OF HIS SONS. THE DAUGHTERS IN TURN ON THE AVERAGE TRANSMIT 50% OF THAT BROODMARE SIRE'S X TO ALL THEIR OFFSPRING.
Surely, the autosomal traits play a big role in Broodmare sire success but that role played by autosomes does not relegate the X chromosome to being just a minor role player toward that success.
The statistical evidence is overwhelming that Buckpasser's X chromosome played more than a minor role toward that success.
In addition, I have used Buckpasser in the X passing position to get some really solid priced winners in the Derby and Belmont Stakes. Horses like Funny Cide returned 27 dollars in the Derby, Orb 12 dollars, Real Quiet 18 dollars, Unbridled 23 dollars etc In the Belmont Drosselmeyer paid around 28 dollars, Summer Bird paid 25 dollars etc. in recent years.
My angles for the Derby, Preakness and Belmont stakes that use Buckpasser in the X have strong impact values, strong ROIs for all three races
Two daughters were Kentucky Broodmares of the Year: Relaxing 1989, who mothered Easy Goer, and Toll Both 1991 (who begot 7 stakes winners). A third daughter, Passing Mood, was Broodmare of the Year in Canada in 1989 primarily due to her son, With Approval and this happened before another son, Touch Gold won the Belmont Stakes in 1997.
Many other daughters of Buckpasser were good producers: Alluvial, Con Game, Numbered Account, Sex Appeal, Lassie Dear (second dam of AP Indy and Summer Squall), Spring Adieu, dam of Danehill, and Magic the third dam of Unbridled.
Stallions out of Buckpasser mares include the Broodmare Sire, Private Account who sired Hall of Famer, Personal Ensign who was Broodmare of the year in 1991. Another stallion, El Gran Señor, fathered the 2002 Broodmare of the Year, Toussaud.
Miswaki's daughter, Urban Sea, was Broodmare of the Year in England and Ireland in 2001 and her son, Galileo, is one of the top sires in the World and is becoming an outstanding Broodmare sire as well.
Buckpasser's daughter, Spring Adieu, is the second dam of Danehill who is the broodmare sire of Frankel, Horse of the Year in Europe in 2011 and 2012.
What do all of the above mentioned superior thoroughbreds have in common? THEY ALL CARRY BUCKPASSER IN THE X PASSING POSITION.
The above stats strongly support the idea that the X chromosome plays more than just minor role in broodmare sire success.
A fundamental inheritance pattern also supports the above idea --The X CHROMOSOME OF A SIRE IS TRANSMITTED TO ALL OF HIS DAUGHTERS AND NONE OF HIS SONS. THE DAUGHTERS IN TURN ON THE AVERAGE TRANSMIT 50% OF THAT BROODMARE SIRE'S X TO ALL THEIR OFFSPRING.
Surely, the autosomal traits play a big role in Broodmare sire success but that role played by autosomes does not relegate the X chromosome to being just a minor role player toward that success.
The statistical evidence is overwhelming that Buckpasser's X chromosome played more than a minor role toward that success.
In addition, I have used Buckpasser in the X passing position to get some really solid priced winners in the Derby and Belmont Stakes. Horses like Funny Cide returned 27 dollars in the Derby, Orb 12 dollars, Real Quiet 18 dollars, Unbridled 23 dollars etc In the Belmont Drosselmeyer paid around 28 dollars, Summer Bird paid 25 dollars etc. in recent years.
My angles for the Derby, Preakness and Belmont stakes that use Buckpasser in the X have strong impact values, strong ROIs for all three races
No matter how many times you follow Stan's thread to argue against his belief's and opinions, you likewise have no proof that genes carried on the x-chromosome do not havea decisive influence on broodmare sire success.
DDT. Have you ever considered going over to Louis's thread and trying to convince him how ridiculous it is to blame breakdowns on Phalaris sire lines? Or do you just like to needle Stan ?
DDT. Have you ever considered going over to Louis's thread and trying to convince him how ridiculous it is to blame breakdowns on Phalaris sire lines? Or do you just like to needle Stan ?
Jeff
I do not intentionally needle Stan, he starts a thread and I attempt to answer his questions. And, yes I had an ongoing debate with Louis for years and finally gave up.
Stan has a right to express his opinions, as does anyone on a public forum, presenting that opinion as fact is another matter.
DDT
I do not intentionally needle Stan, he starts a thread and I attempt to answer his questions. And, yes I had an ongoing debate with Louis for years and finally gave up.
Stan has a right to express his opinions, as does anyone on a public forum, presenting that opinion as fact is another matter.
DDT
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Pan Zareta
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DDT wrote:It does not matter how many times you recite all of the above facts, it still does not prove that genes carried on the x chromosome are a primary reason for broodmare sire success.
I'd add that SHOUTING doesn't strengthen a weak argument.
The strongest circumstantial evidence for an x variant of major relevance to elite performance would come from Buckpasser's own progeny performance. His daughters, however, all of whom received his x, did not outperform his sons or the daus. of more successful top tier sires. Whatever favorable x variants he may have possessed did not help them compensate on the track for the fact that optimal complements of genomic variants (polygenic profiles) most relevant to elite performance just don't appear to have lined up as frequently with the Buckpasser cross as with some other top tier sires of the time.
That the produce of those daughters made Buckpasser an outstanding broodmare sire is due in no small part to the fact that daughters are more likely to remain in the top tier and be bred to better mates. This may have been especially true of Buckpasser's daus. since he was a remarkable performer and, as hpkingjr pointed out, his daus. could be bred to almost any stallion.
A variety of scenarios could explain the genomic factors involved in the success of Buckpasser's broodmare sire progeny but an x variant of major relevance to elite performance is neither among them, nor indicated by the genome-based evidence. Not to mention the fact that it's pretty unlikely that any single scenario explains the genomic aspect of success for every GSW with Buckpasser as first broodmare sire.
buckpassers daughters
Pan Zareta wrote: (referring to Buckpasser)
"His daughters did not outperform his sons or the daughters of more successful top tier sires."
That's true, but the progeny of Buckpasser's daughters outperformed the progeny of any other broodmare sire over the last half century with regard to AEI. Name another broodmare sire that has an AEI of 3.23 in the last 50 years. You can't.
Furthermore, Buckpasser generated three daughters that became champions:
La Prevoyante-----2 year old filly champion of 1972 in the U. S. and Canada
Numbered Account-----2 year old filly champion in 1971 and the dam of Private Account who sired Hall of Famer, Personal Ensign.
Relaxing----Champion Older Female and also the Broodmare of the Year in 1989
Buckpasser never fathered a champion son which is more evidence indicating the strength of his X chromosome.
You continually state that the X chromosome at best plays only a minor role in broodmare sire success. That's ridiculous and is a blanket statement (made as if it were a known fact). Genomic research is in its infancy and there is still a great ocean of truth that needs to be discovered about the complex mechanisms involved in genetic functions.
I do not believe that a single gene on the X or even a combination of genes on the X chromosome are the sole factors that influence broodmare sire success. Certainly, the autosomal genes play an important role as well. However, I do believe that the X chromosome which Buckpasser got from his dam, Busanda, was a contributing factor to his success as a broodmare sire. The X that Buckpasser received from Busanda, was not just run of the mill. It was an important role player in Buckpassers tremendous success by way of his daughters.
You would say --at best that X plays only a minor role in Buckpasser's success as a broodmare sire. I say it plays an important role.
L
"His daughters did not outperform his sons or the daughters of more successful top tier sires."
That's true, but the progeny of Buckpasser's daughters outperformed the progeny of any other broodmare sire over the last half century with regard to AEI. Name another broodmare sire that has an AEI of 3.23 in the last 50 years. You can't.
Furthermore, Buckpasser generated three daughters that became champions:
La Prevoyante-----2 year old filly champion of 1972 in the U. S. and Canada
Numbered Account-----2 year old filly champion in 1971 and the dam of Private Account who sired Hall of Famer, Personal Ensign.
Relaxing----Champion Older Female and also the Broodmare of the Year in 1989
Buckpasser never fathered a champion son which is more evidence indicating the strength of his X chromosome.
You continually state that the X chromosome at best plays only a minor role in broodmare sire success. That's ridiculous and is a blanket statement (made as if it were a known fact). Genomic research is in its infancy and there is still a great ocean of truth that needs to be discovered about the complex mechanisms involved in genetic functions.
I do not believe that a single gene on the X or even a combination of genes on the X chromosome are the sole factors that influence broodmare sire success. Certainly, the autosomal genes play an important role as well. However, I do believe that the X chromosome which Buckpasser got from his dam, Busanda, was a contributing factor to his success as a broodmare sire. The X that Buckpasser received from Busanda, was not just run of the mill. It was an important role player in Buckpassers tremendous success by way of his daughters.
You would say --at best that X plays only a minor role in Buckpasser's success as a broodmare sire. I say it plays an important role.
L