Wondering if anyone has exoerienced or had problems with maltreatment and instances of bogus billing charges from thoroughbred boarding farms in Kentucky? We have some strong evidence of this happening to a broodmare and yearling that we've boarded at a farm near Keeneland.
Does the Kentucky Racing Authority or any other state or national organizations have any jurisdiction to investogate? Any thoughts on how to expose this abhorrent practice? We live in Central KY and now have our own farm but have just moved several horses that we boarded elsewhere. Sad situation and we don't want them to get away with this.
Thanks, Mark
Maltreatment and Fraudulent Charges at KY Boarding Farms
Moderators: Roguelet, hpkingjr, WaveMaster
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marknickolas
- Suckling
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2004 7:29 pm
I don't know what farm you are dealing with... there is no "regulation" on what farms charge... but it you have questions about a bill you have Every Right to call up the farm and go over a detailed account... or go to the farm and ask the help there if your mare really got those things...
FOS, respectfully, we charge $8 to worm a horse, which includes the time to apply the wormer, and note the date, etc., on the horse's health card. When you get the oil changed in your car, you don't just pay for the oil and the filter. We shop for wormers in quantity, and it costs about $3.50-$4.00 per dose, but there is the time involved to buy/stock it and administer it. We charge $25 for a 6-way vaccination; ditto we stock dated vaccine, provide a new syringe and needle, etc. At least the owner is not paying a vet to do these things, they would be much higher. Other shots like penicillin, epinephrine, etc., medications like SMZ's, liniments, leg wrapping, etc. etc. etc. etc. are based on the cost of the materials and then the time/labor to provide it. Owners always have the option of paying the veterinarian, if they would prefer.
FOS, respectfully, we charge $8 to worm a horse, which includes the time to apply the wormer, and note the date, etc., on the horse's health card. When you get the oil changed in your car, you don't just pay for the oil and the filter. We shop for wormers in quantity, and it costs about $3.50-$4.00 per dose, but there is the time involved to buy/stock it and administer it. We charge $25 for a 6-way vaccination; ditto we stock dated vaccine, provide a new syringe and needle, etc. At least the owner is not paying a vet to do these things, they would be much higher. Other shots like penicillin, epinephrine, etc., medications like SMZ's, liniments, leg wrapping, etc. etc. etc. etc. are based on the cost of the materials and then the time/labor to provide it. Owners always have the option of paying the veterinarian, if they would prefer.
So Run for the Roses, as fast as you can.....
Maybe I'm reading the question wrong, but "maltreatment and bogus billing charges" gives me the impression that the horses are receiving poor care and the owner is being charged for things that weren't done, not just a higher price for things done than the farm's actual cost. Of course, my interpretation may be incorrect, but that's the impression I got when I first read the post.
If it's an issue of poor care and being falsly billed, AND you have proof, I say stick it to them. People who bill falsly to get an owner's money, then don't even USE that money to take good and proper care of that person's horse, are deserving of anything they get, IMO. I don't care if it happens in Kentucky or Sri Lanka, this is not something that people should be allowed to think they will get away with. Maybe if more people called this type of thing out, our industry would be seen in a bit of a better light.
However, if you're not 100% sure, tread lightly. Messing with people's reputations is serious business. If it's deserved... I say go for it, but make sure it's really deserved first!
As for who would investigate... I would think any lawyer would. I'm not in Kentucky so I don't know if they have any organizations to regulate ethical business practices, but any Kentucky based lawyer should know.
Good luck, and let us know what you decide to do!
If it's an issue of poor care and being falsly billed, AND you have proof, I say stick it to them. People who bill falsly to get an owner's money, then don't even USE that money to take good and proper care of that person's horse, are deserving of anything they get, IMO. I don't care if it happens in Kentucky or Sri Lanka, this is not something that people should be allowed to think they will get away with. Maybe if more people called this type of thing out, our industry would be seen in a bit of a better light.
However, if you're not 100% sure, tread lightly. Messing with people's reputations is serious business. If it's deserved... I say go for it, but make sure it's really deserved first!
As for who would investigate... I would think any lawyer would. I'm not in Kentucky so I don't know if they have any organizations to regulate ethical business practices, but any Kentucky based lawyer should know.
Good luck, and let us know what you decide to do!
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"Don't be a boorish buffoon" -Hokies Respect 'Jerk Alert'
"Don't be a boorish buffoon" -Hokies Respect 'Jerk Alert'
Hmmm- no names- but my mare went to a "well respected" farm in WV- I delivered her myself with a neck strap that seemed to go missing shortly after that.
After several phone calls with the manager not being able to tell me if my mare had cycled yet- I decided to show up and see for myself. After walking around in a mud pit,with no hay or feed in sight, for 20 minutes trying to find my mare in the 40 some mares there- he finally came and asked me to pick my mare out of the herd.
He made no apologies for her skeletal appearance.
I took my mare home that day and since then have heard similar stories from others- How do these farms keep their good reputation with multiple instances of similar care?
After several phone calls with the manager not being able to tell me if my mare had cycled yet- I decided to show up and see for myself. After walking around in a mud pit,with no hay or feed in sight, for 20 minutes trying to find my mare in the 40 some mares there- he finally came and asked me to pick my mare out of the herd.
He made no apologies for her skeletal appearance.
I took my mare home that day and since then have heard similar stories from others- How do these farms keep their good reputation with multiple instances of similar care?
Owners need to be their horses' best advocates. I would never just send off a horse and assume it was going to be well treated, no matter what the reputation of the place I was dealing with. Any boarding farm I deal with needs to earn my trust before I give it to them.
And if I personally delivered my mare to a farm that was an over-crowded mud pit housing skeletal horses, I would think I had only myself to blame if when I arrived to retrieve her I found her skeletal and standing in mud.
And if I personally delivered my mare to a farm that was an over-crowded mud pit housing skeletal horses, I would think I had only myself to blame if when I arrived to retrieve her I found her skeletal and standing in mud.
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Stellaspeed
- 2yo Maiden
- Posts: 91
- Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 12:46 pm
- Location: Virginia
Mud Pit
LSB, The farm was O'Sullivan Farm, the one taking care of Housebuster (RIP), and is a showplace .
You would NEVER suspect, looking at the facilities, that a horse is being neglected...I feel horrible, since I recommended the breeding to BOP for the mare. In fact, on a trip up there to see the stallion, the foreman could not conceal his irritation at being asked to show us the stallion. BOP was lead out of the stall, hairy, and filthy, and his feet looked terrible. Our surprise must have been obvious, because he told us the stallion had been out in the mud the day before. We gave him the benefit of the doubt, in hindsight that might have been a mistake.
They may have slick brochures, and a huge gorgeous facility, but their staff was apathetic, Mr Funkhouser included.
You would NEVER suspect, looking at the facilities, that a horse is being neglected...I feel horrible, since I recommended the breeding to BOP for the mare. In fact, on a trip up there to see the stallion, the foreman could not conceal his irritation at being asked to show us the stallion. BOP was lead out of the stall, hairy, and filthy, and his feet looked terrible. Our surprise must have been obvious, because he told us the stallion had been out in the mud the day before. We gave him the benefit of the doubt, in hindsight that might have been a mistake.
They may have slick brochures, and a huge gorgeous facility, but their staff was apathetic, Mr Funkhouser included.
Yes- as above I did go and visit the site and when I dropped my mare off she was led into a beautiful stall with fresh alfalfa hay. I became suspicious after the non answers to my questions. If I had any idea I would never have left her there. As I live a distance away- I could not just rush up there to get her- but I did the very next day when I had had enough. I AM my mare's advocate. And she is in very good hands now.
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Intrinsic Worth
- Starters Handicap
- Posts: 691
- Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 2:27 pm
There is a farm near Paris KY which is owned by an Irish woman who's care of boarded mares is deplorable. The mares have rain rot so bad that some of them have absolutely no hair on their backs. This goes for the yearlings as well. Hoof abscesses go untreated and there are a lot with them. John Franks used to board horses there, but since he has died, I think most of the mares have been sold off. I wish he could have seen what some of his mares looked like.
All men are equal on the turf - or under it.
roxie901 wrote:Hmmm- no names- but my mare went to a "well respected" farm in WV- I delivered her myself with a neck strap that seemed to go missing shortly after that.
After several phone calls with the manager not being able to tell me if my mare had cycled yet- I decided to show up and see for myself. After walking around in a mud pit,with no hay or feed in sight, for 20 minutes trying to find my mare in the 40 some mares there- he finally came and asked me to pick my mare out of the herd.
He made no apologies for her skeletal appearance.
I took my mare home that day and since then have heard similar stories from others- How do these farms keep their good reputation with multiple instances of similar care?
Personally, I think you SHOULD name names. I recently received SEVERAL "warnings" from people who had mares being bred and boarded and horses supposed to be in training at a particular farm I was considering sending my mares to for breeding and boarding. The warnings, from people who had recently experienced the farm, varied from, "the mares come back looking terrible"; "it took some 8 months to get my mare out of there"; "they never return phone calls"; "they forgot to put my horses in the sale"; to a very public lawsuit.
It is not just for the protection of the people...its for the good of the horses that these bonafied complaints should become public knowledge. It's bad enough to be charged for something you are not getting, but in the case of the care of horses, that usually means the horse isn't being cared for and that is just plain wrong!
Presenting a false bill is a federal offense; however, the difficulty is proving it. The farm I am currently boarded at actually started their operation because they were sick of their mares being sent home from KY looking like rails. The key is really staying on top of things, calling alot, asking for photos, and showing up unexpectedly (something the farm I'm using doesn't mind). Are they doing some things I might find to be unneeded? Yes, but my horses are being well-cared for, the bills are actually quite reasonable, and they keep me updated constantly. If your horses look bad when you get them back take photos (date marked or video) and consider a lawsuit. It seems severe, but it would be effective at getting folks attention and setting a standard for care of the animals. B.J.'s right when they start severly overbilling or not returning your calls typically something is amiss.
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klbash2000
- Yearling
- Posts: 61
- Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 7:41 am
- Location: central KY
Boarding farms and charges
I am familiar with several of the boarding farms here in KY as I live right in the middle of most. It is common practice for billing to not match actual work, though usually not by enough to truly affect the horses' care. This does not make it right nor do I agree with it or do it myself but I have seen it happen a lot.
Having said that, on the issue of the neckstrap being re-billed, that could easily have been explained by the mare breaking or losing her old one and needing a new one to match the farm policy of keeping 2 forms of id on each horse (for when they inevitably pull one off). It is not reasonable to expect farm staff to go over a 20-30 acre field looking for a neckstrap, standard procedure is for the barn staff take a quick look around during or right after bringing the mares in and then the secretary orders a new one if it wasn't found.
What most people don't seem to realize is that Ky boarding farms are a business that uses bottom of the barrel minimum wage workers for 90% of their staff. You don't get top notch work out of these people, they don't care, they just want their paycheck. That doesn't make them automatically abusive nor does that mean that the horses are not cared for but it does mean a) that the fact that the mare is your pet means nada to the barn staff, b) there are communications breakdowns going from the person in the barn handling your horse, through the foreman or manager that gets an overall idea and reports it to the secretary that is usually just an office type, not a hands on horse person and c) it also means that when the secretary bills for 5 days of smzs the barn staff may have forgotten to give one or 2 days worth and didn't tell so they didn't get in trouble and d) it means that a horse might miss getting wormed because it was a total brat about letting them put the syringe in it's mouth so they made a half-hearted effort, the wormer went on the outside of the horse and they move to the next stall.
Most are not going to go to any lengths to baby a horse or give it time to adjust to their presencs, or move very slowly and quietly, etc. They are going to walk in, grab the halter, do the task and go to the next stall. There are a few top-notch horseman still around but even when you find them, they are usually working with poor quality employees that are willing to work for the low wages offered to farm employees. The quality of care on most of these farms is quite a bit better than most horses receive throughout the country but as a general rule it is not show barn level care nor individual care nor anywhere near as good as a concientious owner can do at home.
Regarding the Franks horses, they went to several farms when he died and I heard from several of the farms that the ones that came up from La were in horrible condition and appeared as you described so it may or may not have been the Irish woman's fault when you saw them.
Having said that, on the issue of the neckstrap being re-billed, that could easily have been explained by the mare breaking or losing her old one and needing a new one to match the farm policy of keeping 2 forms of id on each horse (for when they inevitably pull one off). It is not reasonable to expect farm staff to go over a 20-30 acre field looking for a neckstrap, standard procedure is for the barn staff take a quick look around during or right after bringing the mares in and then the secretary orders a new one if it wasn't found.
What most people don't seem to realize is that Ky boarding farms are a business that uses bottom of the barrel minimum wage workers for 90% of their staff. You don't get top notch work out of these people, they don't care, they just want their paycheck. That doesn't make them automatically abusive nor does that mean that the horses are not cared for but it does mean a) that the fact that the mare is your pet means nada to the barn staff, b) there are communications breakdowns going from the person in the barn handling your horse, through the foreman or manager that gets an overall idea and reports it to the secretary that is usually just an office type, not a hands on horse person and c) it also means that when the secretary bills for 5 days of smzs the barn staff may have forgotten to give one or 2 days worth and didn't tell so they didn't get in trouble and d) it means that a horse might miss getting wormed because it was a total brat about letting them put the syringe in it's mouth so they made a half-hearted effort, the wormer went on the outside of the horse and they move to the next stall.
Most are not going to go to any lengths to baby a horse or give it time to adjust to their presencs, or move very slowly and quietly, etc. They are going to walk in, grab the halter, do the task and go to the next stall. There are a few top-notch horseman still around but even when you find them, they are usually working with poor quality employees that are willing to work for the low wages offered to farm employees. The quality of care on most of these farms is quite a bit better than most horses receive throughout the country but as a general rule it is not show barn level care nor individual care nor anywhere near as good as a concientious owner can do at home.
Regarding the Franks horses, they went to several farms when he died and I heard from several of the farms that the ones that came up from La were in horrible condition and appeared as you described so it may or may not have been the Irish woman's fault when you saw them.
austique wrote:Presenting a false bill is a federal offense;... If your horses look bad when you get them back take photos (date marked or video) and consider a lawsuit. It seems severe, but it would be effective at getting folks attention and setting a standard for care of the animals. B.J.'s right when they start severly overbilling or not returning your calls typically something is amiss.
Presenting a false bill is only a Federal crime if mailed and then it becomes "mail fraud". Since the mail is under Federal jurisdiction, it is a Federal offense to use the mail to commit a crime. Otherwise, it is just plain fraud IF they refuse to correct the bill and you can prove you never received the goods or services. (I'm not sure if the internet law , for bills received via e-mail, has been changed to be under Federal because all the cases I've seen or heard of are local law, or law of the State where the alleged crime occured.)
One thing I learned long ago is to never have any horses feet trimmed before I ship t KY. When I did, they get trimmed anyway whether they need it or not.
Since then I have found a farm where I board and have been with them for many years. They even give me discounts and 'breaks' and are great people and take top notch care of my nags.
Since then I have found a farm where I board and have been with them for many years. They even give me discounts and 'breaks' and are great people and take top notch care of my nags.