NON-PHALARIS SIRE LINES VANISHING

[louis finochio]

Did the non-(Phalaris) sire line BMS fail to reproduce themselves or were they culled out by the greedy pinhookers?

[siegy]

Hi Siegy,

The point was simple, BJ gave a high profile example that contradicts Louis' hypothesis. It is an excellent factual example, even if only a single example. BJ didn't represent it as being encompassing.

As for your cryptic note about dosage changes since 1758, I'm wondering your source since aptitudinal groups have not assigned for sires before 1900 and thus it's impossible to create dosage figures for the dates you mention. Care to explain?

Pete

hi pete,

the best and easiest way to explain it is this way.
how many truly black thoroughbreds there are and ever have been in the population; since the beginning of the breed.

we know that 1% is maybe a fairly good estimate, for there are truly not many. now follow-up we see that this horses are always special in some regard's.
either stamina or speed.

regard's Siegy,

[Pete]

Hi Siegy,

I still don't follow you and your reply doesn't explain changes in dosages to 1758, nearly 150 years before any dosage figures have been assigned.

I'd say that you're too generous about black TB's, probably far less. I don't know that there are more than a handful of BLACK TB's registered a year.

Pete

[Sam]

I'd say that you're too generous about black TB's, probably far less. I don't know that there are more than a handful of BLACK TB's registered a year.

Now, to be fair, a lot of that has to do with how demanding the Jockey Club is when it comes to getting a horse registered as black. It's just easier to register them as Dark Bay even when they may be true black.

It's a bit silly that they are so strict in the guidelines about registering black horse .. and then puss out and registers all buckskins as "Bay" and Palominos as "Chestnut".

[Pete]

Hi Sam,

I totally agree, the Jockey Club wants color purity?!

If my friend from Texas and Dell is out there, thanks for teaching me some of the intracies about Palominos and Buckskins.

The Jockey Club says that they register 'true' blacks if they posess no other color, thus I was just expanding the their rarity that Siegy mentioned.

Regards,

Pete

[siegy]

Hi Siegy,

The point was simple, BJ gave a high profile example that contradicts Louis' hypothesis. It is an excellent factual example, even if only a single example. BJ didn't represent it as being encompassing.

As for your cryptic note about dosage changes since 1758, I'm wondering your source since aptitudinal groups have not assigned for sires before 1900 and thus it's impossible to create dosage figures for the dates you mention. Care to explain?

Pete

hi pete,

now please listen, i,am not 100% sure on this as you all well now.
also have changed the number of my mares i, look at.
so to be easy on all and myself i, will only post the % of the relation ship between the di and the cd. we will see after a time if it stands up.
a increase or degrease should also tell.
Regard's Siegy,

[siegy]

Hi Siegy,

The point was simple, BJ gave a high profile example that contradicts Louis' hypothesis. It is an excellent factual example, even if only a single example. BJ didn't represent it as being encompassing.

As for your cryptic note about dosage changes since 1758, I'm wondering your source since aptitudinal groups have not assigned for sires before 1900 and thus it's impossible to create dosage figures for the dates you mention. Care to explain?

Pete

hi pete,

now please listen, i,am not 100% sure on this as you all well now.
also have changed the number of my mares i, look at.
so to be easy on all and myself i, will only post the % of the relation ship between the di and the cd. we will see after a time if it stands up.
a increase or degrease should also tell.
Regard's Siegy,

adding:
the % for sabertooth 6.5 f 1.13 nwr is = 0 % ~ -1167% = - infinite
the % for lucky forever g 1.13.1 is =-49% ~ 211% = - 531%
Regard's Siegy,
adding:
affirmed is = -23 % ~ -667% = - 3000%
alydar is = -44 % ~ -260 % = - 1464%
hypot ? what was the time between them?
it 500 % = 1/5 sec should work to 3/5 sec ???
Siegy,

[Pete]

Hi Siegy,

Now I got it!

Pete

[BJ]

Hi Siegy,

Now I got it!

Pete

Huh????

[BJ]

Another contradiction to the theory that multiple crosses to Phalaris means unsoundness:

Great Lady M was 5x5 to Phalaris (in 8 crosses), yet made over 50 starts. Her greatest foal, Lady's Secret, shows 45 starts, yet was 5x6 to Phalaris (in 7 crosses).

Horse Inbreeding Stats Crosses Lines Blood% Influence AGR
NEARCO 3S x 5D 2 2 (2) (0) 15.63% 4x4 20.02%
HYPERION 4s x 5d x 5D x 6D 4 4 (2) (2) 14.06% 4x4 18.01%
PHAROS 4S x 6D x 7d x 7d 4 3 (1) (2) 9.38% 4x5 14.49%
ST SIMON 8s x 7S x 7S x 8s x 8S x 7S x 9s x 9s x 8S x 9S x 9S x 8s x 9S x 9D x 9D x 9d x 9D x 9D x 9D x 8D x 9D x 9D x 8D x 9d x 8d x 9d x 9D x 9D 28 12 (6) (6) 8.79% 5x5 10.45%*
SELENE 5S x 7S x 6D x 6D x 7D 5 2 (2) (0) 7.81% 5x5 12.36%
GAINSBOROUGH 5S x 7D x 6D x 6D x 7D 5 2 (2) (0) 7.81% 5x5 9.72%
CHAUCER 6s x 6s x 8s x 8d x 9d x 8d x 7d x 7d x 9d x 8d x 9d 11 3 (0) (3) 6.84% 5x5 11.94%*
PHALARIS 5S x 7S x 7D x 7D x 8D x 8D 6 3 (3) (0) 6.25% 5x5 9.49%
CANTERBURY PILGRIM 7S x 7S x 7S x 9S x 9D x 9D x 8D x 9D x 8D x 8D x 8D x 7D x 9D x 9D x 9D 15 2 (2) (0) 6.05% 5x6 6.59%*
SWYNFORD 6s x 8D x 7D x 7D x 6d x 8D x 8d 7 5 (2) (3) 5.86% 5x6 9.30%
SCAPA FLOW 5S x 7D x 7D x 8D x 8D 5 2 (2) (0) 5.47% 5x6 10.12%
POLYMELUS 6S x 8S x 7S x 8D x 8D x 8D x 9D x 9D x 8D 9 3 (3) (0) 4.69% 5x6 5.92%*
BAYARDO 6S x 8D x 7D x 7D x 8D x 8D 6 2 (2) (0) 4.30% 6x6 5.05%
BROMUS 6S x 8S x 8D x 7D x 8D x 9D x 9D 7 2 (2) (0) 3.91% 6x6 7.01%*
GALOPIN 9S x 8S x 8S x 9S x 8s x 9S x 8S x 9S x 9S x 9S x 9d x 9D x 9d x 9D x 9D 15 3 (2) (1) 3.71% 6x6 1.17%*

[louis finochio]

Great Lady M. has the following crosses of sire lines within her 5 generation pedigree.

4 crosses of (Phalaris) thru Phalaris---Nearco===Fair Trial--- and Unbreakable.
1 cross of (Rabelais) thru Haversac.
4 crosses of (Gainsborough) thru Gainsborough---Hyperion 2 times---and Owen Tudor.
1 cros of (Rock Sand) thru Abbots Trace.
1 cross of (Fair Play) thru Discovery.
1 cross of (Teddy) thru Sir Gallahad 3rd.
1 cross of (Ben Brush) thru Transmute.
1 cross of (Speculum) thru Baytown.
1 cross of (Domino) thru Stimulus.
1 cross of (Tourbillon) thru Djbel.

I will post Lady's Secret later.

[louis finochio]

Ladys Secret has 5 crosses of (Phalaris) thru Pharos 2 times---Polynesian---Nasrullah---and Petition.

1 cross of (Swynford) thru Blenheim II.
1 cross of (Fair Play) thru Display.
1 cross of (Sundridge) thru Pompey.
1 cross of (Prince Rose) thru Rose Prince.
1 cross of (Bend Or) thru Polymelian.
1 cross of (Rock Sand) thru Papyrus.
1 cross of (Tourbillon) thru My Babu.
2 crosses of (Gainsborough) thru Hyperion and Heliopolis.
1 cross of (Dark Ronald) thru Brown Bud.
1 cross of (Teddy) thru Fighting Fox.

Both Ladys Secret and Great Lady M have a balance of non-(Phalaris) sire lines that gives them soundness and hybrid vigor.

As the non-(Phalaris) sire lines are a vanishing breed, it will become difficult in the years to come to find these non-(Phalaris) sire lines to outcross with the (Phalaris) sire lines.

[vineyridge]

You simply can't get around the fact that every time a Phalaris line sire is bred to a Phalaris line dam, the breed loses genetic diversity. In Cleveland Bays, a very rare breed of horse, the number of separate bloodlines went from over 100 to only 3 when horses were no longer needed for driving, agriculture, and the military. The breed is so rare that they are using special software designed for zoos that breed endangered species to maximize genetic strength of the few remaining lines. The Smithsonian magazine recently had an article about them.

American TB breeders have a different focus from the rest of the racing world. We don't have real distance races except in steeplechase meets, nor do we have a strong focus on turf racing. What we do focus on is brilliant, blazing speed for dirt sprints, and Phalaris line horses are clearly exceptional at that.

My only question is whether or not enough non-Phalaris lines will be preserved to preserve genetic diversity and "hybrid vigor". From the looks of just the two pedigrees I posted, the answer is pretty clearly not.

[louis finochio]

The non-(Phalaris) sire line is alive and well in the tail male or the dams side of the pedigree.

There are different branches of the (Phalaris) sire line and this is what is making this (Phalaris) sire line successful today. If these different branches were not alive today it would be like mating cousins and half brother and sister matings.

What little non-(Phalaris) sire lines we have left today are to be treasured and kept and not culled out because of their declining numbers that we are seeing today.

[Sysonby]

Personally I think the day that TB breeders make it their goal to "preserve" bloodlines rather than rely on the hurly burly of the racetrack to make their selections is the day that the TB will join the Cleveland Bay in irrelevance. The very strength of the TB is the fact that it is a using breed in a completely objective forum. In that forum, Phalaris bred horses have dominated because they are simply faster than others.

The other thing about the TB is that it is a relatively old breed with a completely closed stud book. Of course Phalaris is becoming more concentrated. So is St Simon, Domino and any other major stallion you can name from the turn of the 20th century. Phalaris gets the rap though because we live in a "begat" world where tail male takes precedence in our minds if not in reality. But it makes for nice charts you can hang on a tackroom wall.

As for fragility, some of the speedy lines like Raise a Native do have issues. But is that being handed down from Phalaris or from another part of his pedigree? Moreover, responsible breeders take it into account. Alydar is a perfect example that you can play with fire and not get burned.