hi HR LLC
You wrote "There was 1 Point Given in the June 28th Fasig 2YO Sale. He worked a decent 36.4 at the under tack show."
Respectfully...you might see it differently...but I suggest that 36.4 (which is Fasig shorthand for 36 4/5) at a Fasig-Tipton 2-yo in Training Sale under tack show is NOT a decent "time" for a 3/8ths work. It is more in the realm of miserable...and just a notch or so short of what might be described as awful.
I did not see him work...but I find it hard to imagine how 36 4/5 (by a horse that is supposedly prepared to make a good effort at a late June Fasig 2-yo sale) could be considered "decent" (your word).
Furthermore...when considering Point Given's initial stud fee (which you referenced), of $125,000 and all the costs related to getting this colt to this 2-yo sale...his sales-price of $18,500 (as indicated on the sales results) is probably a fair reflection of what others thought of him (apparently not much). And apparently the colt's owner must have felt the same way...he/she was apparently willing to let him go for $18,500.
Following is a very general overview (or guideline) that I suggest some might consider an interesting reference (if nothing else) for 3/8 mile recorded works (as timed by the sales companies) at most (if not all) 2-Year-Olds In Training Sales in the United States. 33 and change might be described as ranging from Exceptional to Outstanding...34 and change might be described as ranging from Very Good to Good...35 and change might be a Fair to Decent range...36 and change might put you in the OUCH to double OUCH range...37 and change might be "X-rated"...above that, "XXX-rated."
Regardless...nothing is etched in stone...and we've seen many two-year-olds in training whose "times" did not particularly impress at the sales, go on and become VERY good race horses...but it's probably fair to say those are the exceptions and not the rule. Obviously there are variables (other than times) which might affect the honest and thorough process of evaluating a two-year-old in training...but I suggest that in general the above descriptions might serve as a reasonable reference (and/or guideline)...as to how some (if not many) might sometimes perceive recorded "times" at the Two-Year-Olds In Training Sales.
Respectfully
New stallion potential
Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, madelyn
Seems like you want to keep it under 12's per to get any consideration. Smart money waits at the long end of the stretch, timing the gallop out too. But most importantly is HOW the time was acheived. I have seen many "good movers" get points on style alone.
And you get none of this help at the yearling sales.
And you get none of this help at the yearling sales.
-
bcassidy
- Restricted Stakes Winner
- Posts: 876
- Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 5:36 pm
- Location: Springfield twshp, NJ
Throw a dart---it is as accurate as any other method you could choose until their foals start running. I prefer to breed to a stallion who is already proven but still undervalued---Eltish, West Acre, Smoke Glacken, Northern Afleet, Outflanker, Judge TC, Montbrook,Evansville Slew, Mutakkdim, Menifee, Smart Strike, Maybe even Distorted Humor, Mr. Greely or Grand Slam you could still put in the undervalue role, of course the last three are substantially more money and would only work for me as breed to sell stallions.
best regards Brendan
Hi HR LLC and FOS,
I was the under bidder on the Point Given (@$18,000) and only bid that high because my client wanted the horse. I was relieved not to get him.
He was hip #61 and I advised against his purchase, making these notes:
"Green w/choppy high knee action, wings front right, too much going on - slow horse". These notes were from the tack show and I watched his video perhaps 20 times more. The time of 36.4 was better than he looked because he was all out to do it.
Physically he toed out (both - moderately), was immaturen the chest a bit offset and had good size. I could have lived with him physically but not on performance potential.
When I look at a 2yo work I want to see action that makes me believe that the horse hold up to training and win at a major track. I didn't see it in this colt.
In the May FT Timonium sale there was a Point Given who went for $10,000. A big, gawky and uncordinated thing that went :24/2f. I never considered him. Hip #61 in June was better than that guy.
FOS, Danny Pate's (consignor) girlfriend was next to me bidding on the horse and I thought she bid him out but it was someone else. I hope I'm proven wrong, but I don't see a bright or long career for this guy. You're right that they didn't think too much of him - they told me that they felt he would bring $15k.
HR LLC, there was a Tiger Ridge filly (hip #4) that was an exceptional mover. She went 10.1/1f, but only really started to move about 50 yards from the wire. She was well under :22 galloping out. She was RNA'd for $72k. Her time was excellent but she was better than it indicated.
Tiznow's stamping a lot of his foals. Big and poweful, I expect them to come on later in the year and at 3. Songandaprayer gets some great looking foals too. I expect these 2 to remain at the top of the freshman list. I won't make predictions about next year's freshmen.
Regards,
Pete
I was the under bidder on the Point Given (@$18,000) and only bid that high because my client wanted the horse. I was relieved not to get him.
He was hip #61 and I advised against his purchase, making these notes:
"Green w/choppy high knee action, wings front right, too much going on - slow horse". These notes were from the tack show and I watched his video perhaps 20 times more. The time of 36.4 was better than he looked because he was all out to do it.
Physically he toed out (both - moderately), was immaturen the chest a bit offset and had good size. I could have lived with him physically but not on performance potential.
When I look at a 2yo work I want to see action that makes me believe that the horse hold up to training and win at a major track. I didn't see it in this colt.
In the May FT Timonium sale there was a Point Given who went for $10,000. A big, gawky and uncordinated thing that went :24/2f. I never considered him. Hip #61 in June was better than that guy.
FOS, Danny Pate's (consignor) girlfriend was next to me bidding on the horse and I thought she bid him out but it was someone else. I hope I'm proven wrong, but I don't see a bright or long career for this guy. You're right that they didn't think too much of him - they told me that they felt he would bring $15k.
HR LLC, there was a Tiger Ridge filly (hip #4) that was an exceptional mover. She went 10.1/1f, but only really started to move about 50 yards from the wire. She was well under :22 galloping out. She was RNA'd for $72k. Her time was excellent but she was better than it indicated.
Tiznow's stamping a lot of his foals. Big and poweful, I expect them to come on later in the year and at 3. Songandaprayer gets some great looking foals too. I expect these 2 to remain at the top of the freshman list. I won't make predictions about next year's freshmen.
Regards,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
Hi Dray,
I buy whereever I need to (generally by clients' need or request) but I like 2yo in training sales because I can see so much more about the horse than at yearling (weanling) sales.
Regards,
Pete
I buy whereever I need to (generally by clients' need or request) but I like 2yo in training sales because I can see so much more about the horse than at yearling (weanling) sales.
Regards,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
Hi FOS,
Especially at 2yo sales, I don't know that I could ever make generalizations about time since there are so many variables that come into play.
I'd suggest to anyone attending an Under Tack show to walk the track for at least 1/4 mile from the finish line backwards. Put your hand in the surface to see the moisture content and depth of the cover and firmness of the base. Judge how fsat they've mae the track (and they will).
In the June FT Timonium tack show the track cover was no more than 2" near the rail (very hard base close to the surface), 4" deep further out and was moist to wet (the cover was deeper around the turn).
As should be expected, the surface was 'souped up', but the tight turns at Timonium would affect times too (5/8th mile track).
I keep these biases in mind when evaluating the times. I always note horses that are not running full speed when they start their time, and those that may have been at full speed for too long (especially in a 3f work).
Far more than the time I'm interested in the action, or why a time might have been faster or slower. I purchased a colt who blew the tight Timonium turn and still went 22.2. He was easily sub 22 without the turn problem and I don't expect him ever to run for us on anything smaller than 9f track. I bought another horse who was 'tiptoeing' around the tight turn, changed leads a little late and still clocked an easy 23.3 galloping out in 36.1. Keep in mind that on a short stretch like Timonium the lead change is more of a factor.
A couple of years ago in Canada I liked a well made colt by Foxtrail. He worked 38.3 (sounds terrible) but it was from a standing start, effortless, smooth and he galloped out in about :51. I thought we might get him for $8k (CAN). He went for $83k.
At the tack show learn orient yourself to the marker poles. This way you can approximate the gallop out and split times. Don't use the stretch poles since your perspective is skewed and you can't orient them properly (and they become a distraction). The 'smart' guys who clock the gallop out from the rail miss what's important in the workout - the action. You NEED to see the action when the horse is asked for speed. Often a horse with excessive action or winging will not be as apparent in tyhe gallop out. Up in the stands you can see the whole thing and the gallop out (while very important) is as much an indication of how far along in training the horse is as anything else.
I don't mind a horse that changes leads late, but I won't take a horse who can't coordinate his lead change. I'll take hard action over lots of knee action and I don't like anything past a whisper of a wing.
Ask the consignor how long the horse has been in training and where. Chances are that this is their first time on the tack show track and if it's not (and it's a peculiar track like Timonium), I expect a little more performance.
Regards,
Pete
Especially at 2yo sales, I don't know that I could ever make generalizations about time since there are so many variables that come into play.
I'd suggest to anyone attending an Under Tack show to walk the track for at least 1/4 mile from the finish line backwards. Put your hand in the surface to see the moisture content and depth of the cover and firmness of the base. Judge how fsat they've mae the track (and they will).
In the June FT Timonium tack show the track cover was no more than 2" near the rail (very hard base close to the surface), 4" deep further out and was moist to wet (the cover was deeper around the turn).
As should be expected, the surface was 'souped up', but the tight turns at Timonium would affect times too (5/8th mile track).
I keep these biases in mind when evaluating the times. I always note horses that are not running full speed when they start their time, and those that may have been at full speed for too long (especially in a 3f work).
Far more than the time I'm interested in the action, or why a time might have been faster or slower. I purchased a colt who blew the tight Timonium turn and still went 22.2. He was easily sub 22 without the turn problem and I don't expect him ever to run for us on anything smaller than 9f track. I bought another horse who was 'tiptoeing' around the tight turn, changed leads a little late and still clocked an easy 23.3 galloping out in 36.1. Keep in mind that on a short stretch like Timonium the lead change is more of a factor.
A couple of years ago in Canada I liked a well made colt by Foxtrail. He worked 38.3 (sounds terrible) but it was from a standing start, effortless, smooth and he galloped out in about :51. I thought we might get him for $8k (CAN). He went for $83k.
At the tack show learn orient yourself to the marker poles. This way you can approximate the gallop out and split times. Don't use the stretch poles since your perspective is skewed and you can't orient them properly (and they become a distraction). The 'smart' guys who clock the gallop out from the rail miss what's important in the workout - the action. You NEED to see the action when the horse is asked for speed. Often a horse with excessive action or winging will not be as apparent in tyhe gallop out. Up in the stands you can see the whole thing and the gallop out (while very important) is as much an indication of how far along in training the horse is as anything else.
I don't mind a horse that changes leads late, but I won't take a horse who can't coordinate his lead change. I'll take hard action over lots of knee action and I don't like anything past a whisper of a wing.
Ask the consignor how long the horse has been in training and where. Chances are that this is their first time on the tack show track and if it's not (and it's a peculiar track like Timonium), I expect a little more performance.
Regards,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
Hi Pete,
I friend of mine saw that Point Given colt work at he Keeneland April Sale. He went for 4500 at the Keeneland sale. I was surpised he went for 18K at the June Fasig sale. The only thing he had going for him was the fact that he was out of Point Given.
I fell in love with the Tiger Ridge but that price is out of my league. I also liked the Tiznow colt. He was a 130K yearling but sold for only 75k to EQB.
Its interesting to see how you evaluate times at the different tracks. I assume you take away from a horse that works fast at track in Lone Star since that surface is very speed favoring. Even though you mentioned the track in Maryland was "souped up" for the sale. Its still a very slow track even when its "souped up". How is the track at the OBS sale?
I friend of mine saw that Point Given colt work at he Keeneland April Sale. He went for 4500 at the Keeneland sale. I was surpised he went for 18K at the June Fasig sale. The only thing he had going for him was the fact that he was out of Point Given.
I fell in love with the Tiger Ridge but that price is out of my league. I also liked the Tiznow colt. He was a 130K yearling but sold for only 75k to EQB.
Its interesting to see how you evaluate times at the different tracks. I assume you take away from a horse that works fast at track in Lone Star since that surface is very speed favoring. Even though you mentioned the track in Maryland was "souped up" for the sale. Its still a very slow track even when its "souped up". How is the track at the OBS sale?
Hi HR LLC,
I liked the Tiznow (hip #75) a lot myself and he looks a lot like his dad. He had had ankle surgery but the consignor couldn't assure me it was in P1. I would have had a vet look at the x-rays if I were going to go on him.
Jasiri (hip #73) by Indian Charlie was a very smooth actioned horse, did his time of 34.4 nicely. I believe he brought $53,000, less than I though he deserved compared to some of the others. #83, a Yarrow Brae, worked well and hip #90 by Quaker Ridge only worked in 11.0, but he looked a lot better than that and his price of $43,000 reflected it.
It's odd, but prices have a tenedency to be like water - finding their own level. The June sale was thin and weak but more horses sold for $10,000 or more than I expected. One consignor bought his colt back for less than $10,000 and offered him for nearly $30k afterwards.
I did purchase hip #19, a NY bred Vicar filly after the sale. I liked her time (22.3), and her enthusiasm, not too happy with her action (bit high and hard) but she finished up as if it was easy (out 3f in < :35).
Any others that you liked and did you buy any?
Regards,
Pete
I liked the Tiznow (hip #75) a lot myself and he looks a lot like his dad. He had had ankle surgery but the consignor couldn't assure me it was in P1. I would have had a vet look at the x-rays if I were going to go on him.
Jasiri (hip #73) by Indian Charlie was a very smooth actioned horse, did his time of 34.4 nicely. I believe he brought $53,000, less than I though he deserved compared to some of the others. #83, a Yarrow Brae, worked well and hip #90 by Quaker Ridge only worked in 11.0, but he looked a lot better than that and his price of $43,000 reflected it.
It's odd, but prices have a tenedency to be like water - finding their own level. The June sale was thin and weak but more horses sold for $10,000 or more than I expected. One consignor bought his colt back for less than $10,000 and offered him for nearly $30k afterwards.
I did purchase hip #19, a NY bred Vicar filly after the sale. I liked her time (22.3), and her enthusiasm, not too happy with her action (bit high and hard) but she finished up as if it was easy (out 3f in < :35).
Any others that you liked and did you buy any?
Regards,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
Pete,
I had a horse claimed from me at Charles Town in late May, so I decided to use some of the claim money on a 2YO. So I purchased the slowest 2 furlong horse at the sale. Hip #82, a Prime Timber Filly. She worked a 24 but she got off to a slow start(she was standing still and the jockey had to hit her three times to go) and stayed on her right lead the entire work. I liked her action for the price, 3K. She can compete with the 2YO fillies at Remington Park this fall or Sam Houston this winter.
She finally got to Oklahoma this past Tuesday. I had to send her to Lexington thru Brookledge then Equnie Express did not pick her up out of Lexington, KY until last Saturday. Then they took her to Dallas instead of dropping her off in Oklahoma. So she is settling in with my brother in law who trains for me in Oklahoma.
I sent my brother in law the tape of all the workouts from the sale. Of course he wanted the horses we talked about in our earlier posts. I cant do that right now. I have twin babies coming in December 2005 so he has to settle for the lowest priced Prime Timber 2YO that sold in 2005.
I liked the yarrow brae filly. I should have purchased her when I saw her as a yearling at the Fasig Maryland Decmeber sale. She went for 2500 then. All I thought about was all the training money you have to put in to get her tot he races. She worked very fast.
The horse I was surpised that bought a lot was a canivalay horse that was fully to those valay horses. He worked a 12 and was getting out at the end. I think he want for 38K.
Hip #19 was not sold for 14k. I assume you bought her after the sale.
What notes did you have on the Berstien that went for 60K?
I had a horse claimed from me at Charles Town in late May, so I decided to use some of the claim money on a 2YO. So I purchased the slowest 2 furlong horse at the sale. Hip #82, a Prime Timber Filly. She worked a 24 but she got off to a slow start(she was standing still and the jockey had to hit her three times to go) and stayed on her right lead the entire work. I liked her action for the price, 3K. She can compete with the 2YO fillies at Remington Park this fall or Sam Houston this winter.
She finally got to Oklahoma this past Tuesday. I had to send her to Lexington thru Brookledge then Equnie Express did not pick her up out of Lexington, KY until last Saturday. Then they took her to Dallas instead of dropping her off in Oklahoma. So she is settling in with my brother in law who trains for me in Oklahoma.
I sent my brother in law the tape of all the workouts from the sale. Of course he wanted the horses we talked about in our earlier posts. I cant do that right now. I have twin babies coming in December 2005 so he has to settle for the lowest priced Prime Timber 2YO that sold in 2005.
I liked the yarrow brae filly. I should have purchased her when I saw her as a yearling at the Fasig Maryland Decmeber sale. She went for 2500 then. All I thought about was all the training money you have to put in to get her tot he races. She worked very fast.
The horse I was surpised that bought a lot was a canivalay horse that was fully to those valay horses. He worked a 12 and was getting out at the end. I think he want for 38K.
Hip #19 was not sold for 14k. I assume you bought her after the sale.
What notes did you have on the Berstien that went for 60K?
Hi HR LLC,
Congratulations on A LADY SOMETIME. I think you did very well.
My notes on her:
"Green, bigger stride, fair action, slowed on entering stretch, looked better than the time."
My side note is: RAIN START (it started raining just before she went).
I only took note of seeing her video once more (in passing). I didn't see her in person, but the time isn't meaningful with this filly. I think you did very well and you got a decent running family to boot.
I did buy her after the sale, a bit more than I wanted to pay, but I liked her well enough.
The twins are more important
Sounds like you've got a lot to be happy about!
Regards,
Pete
Congratulations on A LADY SOMETIME. I think you did very well.
My notes on her:
"Green, bigger stride, fair action, slowed on entering stretch, looked better than the time."
My side note is: RAIN START (it started raining just before she went).
I only took note of seeing her video once more (in passing). I didn't see her in person, but the time isn't meaningful with this filly. I think you did very well and you got a decent running family to boot.
I did buy her after the sale, a bit more than I wanted to pay, but I liked her well enough.
The twins are more important
Sounds like you've got a lot to be happy about!
Regards,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms