Montjeu and El Prado-better than Giant's Causeway and FuPeg?

[bcassidy]

I am glad I don't have a mare worthy of such decisions. A true first class mare deserves to be bred to outstanding stallions and it would be very difficult to breed such a mare to a stallion that the MARKET didn't think was her equivalent. For my money at the top of the game, I would breed to Gone West, Saddler's Wells, Danehill and Elusive Quality. I believe all of these stallions are very commercial and wouldn't devalue any mare that they covered. In the next tier of stallions, I love El Prado, Northern Afleet, Grand Slam, Distorted Humor and Smoke Glacken, I could see some people thinking that a top mare was underbred if mated to one of these stallions but I think they are as good as any stallion at the top. Having said this however, I would absolutely concede that breeding to sell is a much different selection criteria than breeding to race so I see why some people make the mating decisions that they do but I don't think that AP Indy, FU PEG or Giants Causeway are what most people in the game think of them and they certainly wouldn't fall in into the value column at all. I am all too happy to see many people throwing their money away breeding to these stallions. I can certainly find much better breeding value for a lot less money. Personally, I would take a Northern Afleet, Elusive Quality or Distorted Humor breeding to any other stallion I can think of, especially at NA's stud fee. An incredible value!

[Coquinerie]

I agree with much of what you said. I do believe the easiest way for owners of good mares to make money (not a home run) is to stay in the 10-50k zone... I know when both my mares retire that is the zone I will be looking in with only a slight possiblity of going into the 60-100k region for a stallion.

[Pete]

Hi all,

A fun thread so far.

Any reason no one has mentioned Dynaformer or Smart Strike? Thought I'd throw them intothe mix.

Pete

[Keith]

Roberto is definitely well represented by his sons Kris S., Silver Hawk, Dynaformer, and Brian's Time. Nashua being the broodmare sire of Roberto and Mr. Prospector shows how much his influence he has in pedigrees from two strong lines line alternative to the Northern Dancer sire line.
Dynaformer and Smart Strike are from two very strong broodmare lines. Dynaformer is a nice alternative as a line free of Raise a Native and Northern Dancer. Ribot and Flower Bowl have a great influence on this mare line. Dynaformer being out of the His Majesty mare Andover Way and Brian's Time being out of the Graustark mare Kelley's Day. Brian's Time has done very well in Japan especially crossed with the Northern Dancer mare Pacificus. Dynaformer has done well crossing with Mr. Prospector when you consider Film Maker, Riskaverse, and Ocean Silk. Oflee Wild is out of a half sister to Dynaformer. Oflee Wild may have a chance to be a decent stallion himself when he retires considering he is from the family of Dynaformer and Brian's Time.
Smart Strike is one of the best bred horses you can find being by Mr. Prospector-Classy'N Smart by Smarten being a half brother to the great racemare Dance Smartly. He crosses well with the classic Mr. Prospector x Northern Dancer nick when you consider Soaring Free, English Channel, Portcullis, and Tenpins. One would have to say Smart Strike offers value at $35,000 especially if English Channel goes on to be a great turf horse like that of a Kitten's Joy. What more can you say about Smart Strikes awesome pedigree as his 2nd dam is No Class the dam of Sky Classic, Regal Classic, Classy N' Smart, Grey Classic, and Always a Classic. Wouldn't it be awesome to see A.P. Indy crossed with a mare like Shadow Cast which would bring a pedigree filled with great mares My Charmer, Weekend Surprise, Lassie Dear, Classy N' Smart, No Class, Gold Beauty, Gold Digger,Somethingroyal, Imperatrice, and line breeding Missy Baba 5x5. You would also have a 4x5x5 cross on Bold Ruler as well as well as a 3x5 cross on Mr. Prospector.

Keith

Keith

[Coquinerie]

Pete,

Both offer great value and I think both have every reason to be superior broodmare sires. I especially like Dynaformer in this regard. In fact, I love that whole female family and I had faith in Monarchos from the start, and although its very early, he's not getting off badly at all.

[FOS]

hi Pete

Dynaformer...he's a lot of horse.

As for Smart Strike...he has surprised me. He's reeled off some very nice racehorses...and seems to come up with a nice one quite regularly.

But I have difficulty recommending him as a sire to breed to...his front end has always concerned me. To my way of thinking, he's probably a better sire to buy one by...than to breed to and simply hope for the best.

Best to you.

Respectfully

[louis finochio]

From what Ive observed the Fug. peg. and GC that have went to Euro racing have held together soundness wise better that the ones that are racing in the US.

As soon as a trainer puts pressure on the Fug. peg. and GC in the US they fall apart as the Euro style of training is easier on their underpinning.

[sb]

Fusaichi Pegasus and Giant's Causeway are becoming great sires but aren't their stud fees getting ridiculous?

Keith

Well, no matter what their stud fee, the average person can't afford them anyway; so $100K for deep pocket people is equal to $1k for the average breeder. All relative, I guess. Big Boys' /gals game? Then, you try to catch those horses which fall through the cracks at the track. If the genes are valid, you can still benefit from them in other ways.

SB

[JCBloodstock]

Montjeu has sired 105 foals in 2 crops,70 starters(63%),29 winners(29% from foals-46% from starters),7 SW(7% from foals-11% from starters) and he has sired an amazing 23% stakes horses from starters but what bothers me about Montjeu is none have run on this side of the pond.Giant's Causeway stood his 1st season on the other side of the pond and his seem to run here.Why no Montjeu's yet-could it be that they have a high affinity towards the turf and not the dirt like his sire has had.


Giant's Causeway has sired 248 foals in 2 crops,104 starters(45%),38 winners(18% from foals-40% from starters),5 SW(2% from foals-4% from starters)-he has sired 9% stakes horses from starters-what is jumping out at me on GC is the quality of his filly's as runners-his sire production index is 3.37 - his colt's have a 2.10 and his fillies have a whopping 7.19 - His dam had more heart than any mare I ever saw - heck,she came back after healing from a fractured hind leg to beat Serena's Song at Turfway.A friend of mine(Bill Peters) owned her at the time and I remember everybody told him to sell the mare.Instead he bred her to Storm Cat and topped The Keeneland Sale that year with GC in utero.I think GC is falling into Secretariat syndrome-everybody expected the next coming of him - Secretariat bred the best mare's in the world and by most standard's was still a good sire as he had over 50 stakes winners but where his mark has been felt is as a broodmare sire.I use to hear a saying from the old timers at Keeneland-Secretariat was as great of a race horse as he could be - so how do you breed an inferior mare(even tho she may be the best the breed has to offer at the time but inferior to Secretariat at racing ability) and produce a superior racehorse.Secretariat's ability as a broodmare sire has come from the fact that he bred the best mare's in the world - so where is GC's mark going to be 20 years from now.GC ran 1 race on this side of the pond and mustered a very close 2nd in his 1st start on dirt in The Breeder's Cup Classic no less.How good was he really.He definitely dominated the Europeans and I think with a longer hiatus here-he may have dominated the Americans too.


El Prado - how can you even make a comparison of Fu Peg,Montjeu and GC who have 2 crops of foals with a stallion that has 10 crops of foals - El Prado started making himself before Stronach got his mitt's into him-he started making himself the Blue Collar Way-a very reasonable stud fee and very modest mares - they made it in the regional programs and branched into the listed,Grade 2 & 3 stakes and he sires honest,hard knocking racehorses.The thing I've noticed on El Prado's tho is here is a horse that is 16 years old and his 1st most notable stallion is just entering stud in Madaglia.I like the heck out of El Prado because they are honest,hard knocking racehorses and with the higher fee's his best may be yet to come but for me in a regional program at a $100,000 I don't see it.And besides that fact - not that I don't totally respect what Sadler's Well's has done as a sire,but how many of his sons other than El Prado have cut it in the U.S. - perhaps thats why so many of his colts are running at 8,9,10 and heck Chindi just broke the million mark at age 11 this year.


Fusaichi Pegasus - the July conceived Keeneland July last and smallest in the sale topping Kentucky Derby winner(several do not's in the breeding business kinda went out the window as far as he was concerned) - 176 foals in 2 crops,69 starters(37%),34 winners(21% from foals-56% from starters),9 SW(5% from foals and 13% from starters)-he has sired a pretty good 28% stakes horses from starters-his sire production index is an honest 5.51 with his colts having a 7.62 and his fillies having a 3.72 he's had a respectable 56% winners from starters and you can't fault a 3 in 10 chance of getting a stakes horse from starters.He does only have 1 Grade 1 stakes winner so far but Andromeda's Hero did run 2nd in the Belmont-altho far back but it was still in a Grade 1 Classic-heck I'd take 2nd in that race if I was 35 lengths back.


Montjeu is definitely the most impressive of the 3 second crop sires but I live on this side of the pond and until they run here I think it's hard to compare and especially the fact I believe we are highly oriented to the dirt.Fusaichi looks like early on that he most likely is going to be the sire of stallions if it's any indication so far how his colts have outrun his fillies and Giant will probably be the broodmare sire of the future.Fusaichi Pegasus Son on a Giant's Causeway daughter-30 years down the road it will be interesting.

[FOS]

h JCBloodstock

You wrote "...Giant ('s) Causeway) will probably be the broodmare sire of the future."

You might be right...but of the GC fillies that I've seen, common threads that seem to be most consistent through many of them is that they're rather lightly-made overall (often leaning toward fragile...including that type of pasterns also)...and although not a disqualifier in and of itself, they're often on the small side. Small and lightly-made is generally not a combination to write home about (in the broodmare category anyway)...as far as I'm concerned. The GC's are NOT (in general) strong...robust...good-boned horses (to my way of thinking) and I've not seen one Giant's Causeway filly with a set of quarters to WOW over (although I expect there are exceptions where a powerhouse dam may have injected more of herself into the resultant foal than GC did). To this point though...GC seems to be defining himself more as a sire of physically lightweight thoroughbreds (at least to my experience)...than strongly-made and sturdy with very good-bone types.

We might agree...that GC's been bred to a HUGE number of wonderful mares and his first foal crops are enormous...therefore it's probably fair to say that sheer numbers are in his favor...but I expect that very good physical types (overall) of GC daughters that are or will be destined for the broodmare bands are few and far between (at least thus far in North America).

The fragile-kind of mares might produce the type of horses that might excel elsewhere...but (other than the sheer numbers) I don't expect to see his daughters have much success in North America. That's not to say that one or more GC daughters won't become good (or better) producers in NA...but in general I don't expect much...because in general they're not much...physically.

Respectfully