POINT GIVEN and MINNALOUSHE

[Pete]

7/23/05, Arilington Park, race #6:

CLAREMONT, (f. 2003) by Point Given - Charlotte Augusta by Chief's Crown is the first winner for Point Given, prevailing by a neck in 1:04.71 for 5-1/2 furlongs. She earned $16,200 for her victory. Congrats to the champ. This filly sold for $120k as a weanling and is a half sister to MYTHICAL GEM (G3) and Multitudinous (L).

7/23/05, Belmont Park, race #3:

LOUSHE, (c. 2003) by Black Minnaloushe - Marry Me Scarlett by Dixie Brass wins by 4-1/4 in 1:09.48 for 6f on the turf, earning $25,800 (pushing her sire into the top 10 of freshmen sires). This colt was formerly named Not Yet Rhett, sold for $16,000 as a yearling and is 1/2 to the winner, Scarlett Memories.

This is the 4th winner for Black Minnaloushe and shows that he can get competitive foals on the dirt or turf.

I've seen a number of foals by both sires and the Point Givens have been big and awkward while the Black Minnaloushe's have been solidly built and more athletic.

If you could get a free season to either of these sires to breed your own race horse (not for sale), who would you pick - and why?

Regards,

Pete

[KAL]

Point Given... hands down.

I absolutely concur about the looks of the Point Given's, however I didn't really expect him to have "early" types. He was a monster on the track and an imposing figure, although not a perfect specimen, as a stallion.

I never liked Black Minn... just never have liked him physically and wasn't that impressed with him as a racehorse.

Additionally, I have mares that fit Point Given very well... so without even hesitating, he would be my choice.

[HR LLC]

I saw both of those races yesterday. Both horses were impressive since both came off the pace to win. I am more impressed with 2yos that race mid pack than speed demons that just go wire to wire.

I would go to point given over Black Minnaloushe for the mare I have. Since I dont race my 2YOs until the end of the year, I am not concerned that Point Given horses will not race in April, May or June of their 2YO season. They need time to grown and mature. I can wait...

[JCBloodstock]

Hey Pete - I think it would depend most upon what your looking for.I'm partial to Point Given - not only because he was a monster on the racetrack but partially because his 3rd dam is the dam of my stallion - "Dignitas".But,I think on average they are going to be better 3 & up horses-I think Nijinsky II line mares on him would be an interesting cross.

If I had to choose between the 2 tho' and I had a mare that would work on either I would probably go with Black Minnaloushe.What I like about BM is the Green Dancer/Nijinsky II on Storm Cat.I lost a stallion due to a stall incident 2 years ago by the name of Battle Cry(Storm Bird & out of Navajo Pass-a full sister to Terlingua),and I did a lot of delving into what Storm Cat really worked well on and Nijinsky II line mares was one that did.I also like the 5 x 5 on Spy Song in the pedigree as well as the mix of Stamina Oriented European's in his pedigree.I think BM will be an honest sire of 2 year olds that will get better with age.I don't know if he will ever be a super sire but I think he will put honest racehorses on the ground.I pretty much picked him to be a top 3 freshman sire this year mainly off of numbers and the fact that Coolmore pushes their 2 year olds kinda' in the same format that Mark Casse at Mockingbird Farm did.I also think in the end product you will have better broodmare prospect's as I think this horse might really hit his mark there 15 to 20 years down the road.

Just my opinions and I realize I'm not as professional in putting down my opinions on here as you are and I apologize for that.Jeff

[LSB]

Black Minnaloushe. I've been in his corner since he was racing. I love his female family and his physical type appeals to me much more than Point Given's does. I saw some nice weanlings and yearlings by him at the sales, though nobody really seemed to want them much. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him sire some quick and athletic two year olds, who might have the talent to go on and race well at three.

[Coquinerie]

I'd select Black Minnaloushe as well. If there's one thing I value in race horses, and I think my mares reflect this, is that I hold "versatility" above all else. I love a horse who can be effective on the turf and on the dirt and a horse who can go short and extend that talent over some ground.

Someone I highly respect said they were not only surprised with the Black Minnaloushes at auction, but couldnt help but buy one he saw when he had NO intentions of doing so.

Point Given is too much (at least in my mind) a stallion that was by all means a brilliant racehorse, but who's conformation and size woould hender a lot of mares... also, does he strike anyone as a more "freak" (again, in race record and conformation) type horse... these horses generally dont reproduce themselves. I can see where his get would be better at 3, just doesnt mean they'll be better than "average".

[austique]

I have to jump on the Black Minnaloushe bandwagon as well simply because he comes from a female family that has produced quite a few good sires. He's not necessarily a jump out and grab you kind of horse. He's just kind of average suggesting he might fit quite a bit of the broodmare population. Point Given strikes me as being large and unwieldy and I would guess he would be much like Unbridled (although not nearly as successful) being heavily hit or miss (you either get a great one or a plow horse).

[Karie]

I loved Point Given as a race horse, but since my mare Ceasefire is in foal to Black Minnaloushe I would have to say Black Minnaloushe.

I was VERY impressed with Loushe's race yesterday Looks like one to watch for on the turf... I missed all but the last 1/16th of Claremont's race.. I wish I would have seen the entire race.

I also think that the Point Givens I have seen (only a couple) have looked big and a little awkward. Once they grow up a little I am sure they will be tough!

[Pete]

Hi Karie,

I’m not real high on Black Minnaloushe, but don’t count me among the ’majority’ that dislike him. His foals that I’ve seen have size, mass, bone and some attitude.

I wrote this to you on 7/20.

Loushe served notice that his sire, Black Minnaloushe, can get runners on both surfaces with speed and precocity. I'd suggest to anyone who wants to better evaluate him that they carefully read his Stallion Register page. I didn't like his inconsistency. I didn't like his Euro breeding and racing profile (like Catrail) for a North American stallion. I do like what I'm seeing in the performance of hs first 2yos.

Regards,

Pete

[llbean]

I like Point Given much more than Black Minnaloushe.

also, does he strike anyone as a more "freak" (again, in race record and conformation) type horse... these horses generally dont reproduce themselves.

What's the difference (if any) between a "Freak" (whatever that means) and unusually Talented Champion Racehorse? Becasue plenty of unusually talented champion racehorses have made excellent stallions (see for instance Man O' War, Secretariat, Native Dancer, Tom Fool, Dr Fager, etc.).

-llbean

[Coquinerie]

I like Point Given much more than Black Minnaloushe.

also, does he strike anyone as a more "freak" (again, in race record and conformation) type horse... these horses generally dont reproduce themselves.

What's the difference (if any) between a "Freak" (whatever that means) and unusually Talented Champion Racehorse? Becasue plenty of unusually talented champion racehorses have made excellent stallions (see for instance Man O' War, Secretariat, Native Dancer, Tom Fool, Dr Fager, etc.).

-llbean

Im one of the biggest fans of getting Secretariat in a pedigree out there but to say he was a great sire is totally unreasonable.. although he's had a huge influence through his daughters but thats not what we're talking about here.

My point is this, there's a difference between a real talented racehorse and a "freak"... unfortunately I think the word "freak" is thrown around all the time when a horse goes on a streak but im talking about just outclassing everyone including horses outside of his age group. Many of these horses, mares and stallions, tend not to reproduce their magnificent talent. Its probably a lot to ask for... but when you breed to a "super" horse, its what you're hoping for.

Im talking about a stallion who can create his equal or close to it on a regular basis... isnt that what we're all looking for?

[llbean]

Secretariat is majorly underrated as a sire of racehorses, in my opinion. Yeah sure his AEI/CI was a negative but his CI was so HIGH you'd expect that and Sec's AEI/CI ratio (if I recall correctly) was better than the supposedly great sire AP Indy:

Secretariat: AEI/CI 2.96/3.48 (AEI 85.05% of CI)

AP Indy: AEI/CI 3.23/4.29 (AEI 75.29% of CI)

Of course the higher the CI the harder to get a positive AEI/CI ratio; BUT STILL! Secretariat is considered a failure for some bizarre reason and AP Indy is considered a huge success who stands for 300,000 Smackers. Perceptions simply aren't fitting reality here...

It's true Secretariat didn't reproduce himself but he didn't have to do that to sire horses signficiantly better than most of the other stallions standing at the time.

Another point related to Secretariat is that many of the very good GI Winning sons he sired are forgetton purely because they became very weak stallions; and I tend to think this has warped the perception of Secretariat as a sire to a great degree.

-llbean

[Pete]

Hi Bean and Coke, (doesn't sound so appetizing?

It's true Secretariat didn't reproduce himself but he didn't have to do that to sire horses signficiantly better than most of the other stallions standing at the time.

Another point related to Secretariat is that many of the very good GI Winning sons he sired are forgetton purely because they became very weak stallions; and I tend to think this has warped the perception of Secretariat as a sire to a great degree

There are the two main reasons that Secretariat is often cited as having been mediocre at stud. Same brush painted Affirmed, often cited as a failure at stud, with over 80SWs and 9 champions.

Pete

[Coquinerie]

Hi Bean and Coke, (doesn't sound so appetizing?

It's true Secretariat didn't reproduce himself but he didn't have to do that to sire horses signficiantly better than most of the other stallions standing at the time.

Another point related to Secretariat is that many of the very good GI Winning sons he sired are forgetton purely because they became very weak stallions; and I tend to think this has warped the perception of Secretariat as a sire to a great degree

There are the two main reasons that Secretariat is often cited as having been mediocre at stud. Same brush painted Affirmed, often cited as a failure at stud, with over 80SWs and 9 champions.

Pete

See, I think of Affirmed as an overall better stallion than Secretariat although I think Secretariat will leave one of the most lasting impressions through his daughters.

[FOS]

hi Pete

Interesting question you ask "If you could get a free season to either of these sires to breed your own race horse (not for sale), who would you pick - and why?"

I wouldn't breed to either for any price (even free)...but if I had to...Point Given would be my choice (over Black Minnaloushe).

Having seen so many awkward and/or distorted looking Point Givens might be the leg-up that I'd use to help me select a mare which I felt might produce a good individual by him. But maybe bad-is-good though...to the extent that PG himself might be awkward looking...HUGE and back at the knee etc...but he was one heck of a MONSTER racehorse...despite his physical shortcomings.

I'd take my chances that I could select the right mare to enhance her chances to produce a good PG.

As for Black Minnaloushe there is very little about him that ever appealed to me...although having four winners thus far is nothing to sneeze at.

Pete...why Point Given and Black Minnaloushe to choose between?

Respectfully.