"You spin me right round, baby, right round"
Gotta love that Claiborne PR machine
Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, madelyn
Gotta love that Claiborne PR machine
Watching TVG, Claiborne ad for Arch comes on. One of the lines talks about how he's sired a graded stakes winner in each crop ... leaving out the fact that he didn't have a SINGLE stakes winner until this year.
"You spin me right round, baby, right round"
"You spin me right round, baby, right round"
Michael wrote:He's by Kris S. from a mare who didn't win a stakes until she was four. You maybe expected him to sire precocious young horses?
No, not at all. Come on, Michael, I of anyone should have a real good idea of what a Kris S line sire is going to do.
I was commenting on the line that he's had a graded stakes winner in each crop ... implying that he's been throwing graded stakes horse every year he's had foals on the track, which clearly isn't the case. He wasn't even getting cheap $50k stake horses until this year.
It's spin doctoring. Now that he has 4 graded stakes horses, they can focus on that and ignore the fact that he didn't have a single stakes winner of any kind for almost 3 years. As a comparision, Kissin Kris had a FL-Bred 2yo CH/Canadian 3yo CH in his first crop.
I'd have to double check, but I believe he is the only Kris S son to not have a stakes winner of any kind as a freshman and sophmore sire.
Sam, I just read it differently than you. I don't consider it spin doctoring when Claiborne says plainly that Arch has sired a stakes winner from every crop. His first crop (2000) is only four years old, and now includes several very good stakes winners. His second crop (2001) is now three, and they are showing promise at the stakes level.
Spin doctoring certainly happens (e.g. Taylor Made and Coolmore) but I think it unfair in this instance to claim that the most conservative outfit in Kentucky should be blamed for it.
In other news: Sam, ignore it......
Spin doctoring certainly happens (e.g. Taylor Made and Coolmore) but I think it unfair in this instance to claim that the most conservative outfit in Kentucky should be blamed for it.
In other news: Sam, ignore it......
Hello Michael and Sam
Historically...Claiborne is one of the worst at advertising...promotion...marketing...and spin.
Reality is that in the past they didn't need (or depend on) it...they always had the goods. Claiborne (under the direction of Bull Hancock and his very supportive, and knowledgeble friend Ogden Phipps) had Bold Ruler...Buckpasser...Secretariat...Nijinsky...Round Table...Danzig...Mr. Prospector...Unbridled etc.
Since Seth Hancock has been at the helm...it appears the "ship" is (at best) leaking badly. This is the guy that sold Forty Niner for $10 mil to (as he described) invest in a couple of young stallions. Can you believe he expected something special from Proper Reality? And what about his great selection of Horse Chesnut?
Seth Hancock seems to have a better working knowledge of U.K basketball...than of what it would take to successfully manage and run Claiborne Farm (a historically successful and great thoroughbred nursery and stallion facility) toward a bright future.
Under his management...Claiborne...(since the death of Mr. Prospector and retirement of Danzig) is down to one current sire of consequence (the aging) Seeking the Gold...thanks to Seth Hancock.
Furthermore, anyone that's been to Claiborne Farm realizes quickly that (other than the beautiful real estate which is Claiborne) the place is an ancient-looking disheveled facility.
Even if they did have a spin machine...Claiborne couldn't fool anyone today.
If you want to talk spin...think Three Chimneys as a leader. If you want to talk incredible advertising...promotion...and marketing think Ashford/Coolmore as a leader. If you want to talk aggressive salesmanship...think Taylor Made. If you want to talk independent power...think Lane's End. Each farm seems to have some dubious distinctions.
If you want to talk old-news with a dim future...think Claiborne.
Respectfully
Historically...Claiborne is one of the worst at advertising...promotion...marketing...and spin.
Reality is that in the past they didn't need (or depend on) it...they always had the goods. Claiborne (under the direction of Bull Hancock and his very supportive, and knowledgeble friend Ogden Phipps) had Bold Ruler...Buckpasser...Secretariat...Nijinsky...Round Table...Danzig...Mr. Prospector...Unbridled etc.
Since Seth Hancock has been at the helm...it appears the "ship" is (at best) leaking badly. This is the guy that sold Forty Niner for $10 mil to (as he described) invest in a couple of young stallions. Can you believe he expected something special from Proper Reality? And what about his great selection of Horse Chesnut?
Seth Hancock seems to have a better working knowledge of U.K basketball...than of what it would take to successfully manage and run Claiborne Farm (a historically successful and great thoroughbred nursery and stallion facility) toward a bright future.
Under his management...Claiborne...(since the death of Mr. Prospector and retirement of Danzig) is down to one current sire of consequence (the aging) Seeking the Gold...thanks to Seth Hancock.
Furthermore, anyone that's been to Claiborne Farm realizes quickly that (other than the beautiful real estate which is Claiborne) the place is an ancient-looking disheveled facility.
Even if they did have a spin machine...Claiborne couldn't fool anyone today.
If you want to talk spin...think Three Chimneys as a leader. If you want to talk incredible advertising...promotion...and marketing think Ashford/Coolmore as a leader. If you want to talk aggressive salesmanship...think Taylor Made. If you want to talk independent power...think Lane's End. Each farm seems to have some dubious distinctions.
If you want to talk old-news with a dim future...think Claiborne.
Respectfully
[quote="FOS"]Hello Michael and Sam
Reality is that in the past they didn't need (or depend on) it...they always had the goods. Claiborne (under the direction of Bull Hancock and his very supportive, and knowledgeble friend Ogden Phipps) had Bold Ruler...Buckpasser...Secretariat...Nijinsky...Round Table...Danzig...Mr. Prospector...Unbridled etc.
FOS..you have some of your facts wrong.
Seth, not Bull, was responsible for every horse that entered stud at Claiborne after 1972, the year of Bull's death. That list includes Secretariat, Mr. Prospector, Danzig, and Unbridled, among others. I think that's a pretty good track record. Claiborne also recently bought into Strong Hope, perhaps Grand Slam's fastest son, so its reliance on classic types is slowly moving towards speed horses.
Seth hired Bernie Sams last year to manage the Claiborne stallion portfolio, and he is moving Claiborne forward. It's not fair to compare Claiborne's marketing efforts against those of the monolithic Coolmore Stud and the family run Taylor Made Farm. These latter two farms have almost unlimited resources to purchase and promote their stallions, while Claiborne remains a small, private operation which relies on its traditional methods to compete.
I would hate to see Claiborne Farm emulate some of the high powered marketing staffs of the farms you mentioned. Their uniqueness is one reason why they have stayed the course, while household names like Spendthrift and Calumet Farms have passed on. You can bet Cliaborne will be around a long time, perhaps even longer than some of the high profile, high hype farms you seem to favor.
Reality is that in the past they didn't need (or depend on) it...they always had the goods. Claiborne (under the direction of Bull Hancock and his very supportive, and knowledgeble friend Ogden Phipps) had Bold Ruler...Buckpasser...Secretariat...Nijinsky...Round Table...Danzig...Mr. Prospector...Unbridled etc.
FOS..you have some of your facts wrong.
Seth, not Bull, was responsible for every horse that entered stud at Claiborne after 1972, the year of Bull's death. That list includes Secretariat, Mr. Prospector, Danzig, and Unbridled, among others. I think that's a pretty good track record. Claiborne also recently bought into Strong Hope, perhaps Grand Slam's fastest son, so its reliance on classic types is slowly moving towards speed horses.
Seth hired Bernie Sams last year to manage the Claiborne stallion portfolio, and he is moving Claiborne forward. It's not fair to compare Claiborne's marketing efforts against those of the monolithic Coolmore Stud and the family run Taylor Made Farm. These latter two farms have almost unlimited resources to purchase and promote their stallions, while Claiborne remains a small, private operation which relies on its traditional methods to compete.
I would hate to see Claiborne Farm emulate some of the high powered marketing staffs of the farms you mentioned. Their uniqueness is one reason why they have stayed the course, while household names like Spendthrift and Calumet Farms have passed on. You can bet Cliaborne will be around a long time, perhaps even longer than some of the high profile, high hype farms you seem to favor.
Hi Michael
We'll disagree (to some extent) on this one...respectfully.
Their uniqueness did separate them from others. What was unique about Claiborne is that they had the goods. Now they do not...simple as that.
You may (or may not) know that, Peter Brandt (not Seth Hancock) was the point man in the purchase of the necessary shares (in Mr. Prospector) that would enable the stallion to be moved from Savin Farm, Ocala to Claiborne, Paris, Ky. Seth was not the man.
Seth's job was to re-syndicate the horse after the deal was made (based on $500k per share purchase price). That was easy...mainly because the deal was basically a Peter Brandt...Ogden Phipps purchase.
With regard to Danzig...it was deKwiatkowski that got his butt kicked financially when he paid a small fortune for the Northern Dancer yearling (ultimately named Danzig) who was finished after his 3 race career win streak and prior to even starting in a stake. Trainer Woody Stephens talked Seth into standing the horse...so as to relieve some of deKwiatkowski's anguish and to minimize the pressure on Claiborne's beloved trainer (Stephens). If you recall, it was apparent that Seth did not want the horse...syndicating him for $80k per share and standing him for $20k fee was nearly impossible.
But I must say...most of us would rather be lucky than smart. In the case of Danzig, what he turned out to be was nothing more than dumb luck. This was no genius business decision by Seth.
The stallion that Seth DID want very much was Conquistador Cielo...and deKwiatkowski let him have the Belmont winner at Claiborne as payback...because Seth stood Danzig as a favor when everyone snickered at him. Seth believed in Conquistador Cielo and talked many farm clients into buying shares at $1,000,000 apiece (He was a 36 share horse...and the highest priced syndication of all time, at the time).
You must remember that CC was embarassed in the Travers by the unheralded Canadian runner Runaway Groom. Regardless, Seth's selection of Conquistador Cielo turned out to be a poor stallion choice...just another horse. A poor choice by Seth.
Subsequent to Conquistador Cielo, Seth was all-over Devil's Bag...he wanted him desperately. Again Seth got the one he wanted...syndicated him for $1,000,000 per share...as he previously had done with Conquistador Cielo...and once again Seth had selected a stallion that accomplished very little. Another poor Seth choice.
Re: Unbridled, he stood at Gainesway when the deceased Mrs. Genter's son-in-law Bentley Smith decided it was time to syndicate the already successful stallion and turn him into some cash. As you may remember, Unbridled was already experiencing good success. Many farms showed serious interest in Unbridled...including Taylor Made which went to $18 mil +-. Claiborne reportedly went to $20 mil and got the horse, but Michael you must remember, Unbridled was already a success and his future looked very bright. This was not a real gamble, he was a made stallion at the time.
Seth did want Forty Niner...and made the deal with Mrs. Dupont-Lunger's Christiana stables. But Seth gave up on Forty Niner while only his third crop was racing. He said he sold him for $10 mil so that he would have cash to invest in young stallions. Seth put plenty into Proper Reality, Go For Gin and Horse Chesnut. Three more Seth failures.
And let's not forget Coronado's Quest...another Seth selection. He's left the country without any fanfare. Another poor choice by Seth.
Seth has a very poor track record, but I'm sure Bernie Sams will do the best he can to right the ship...but it may be a near impossibility at this time.
In the past Seth (and his father Bull) could always depend on Ogden Phipps having a top-class prospect to enter the stallion ranks at the farm(such as Buckpasser or Bold Ruler were). Not since Seeking the Gold has that happened...and the lower level stakes caliber Phipps race horses seem to end up at Northview in Maryland these days. You know...stallions like the unimportant Phipps-bred Diamond.
Michael...respectfully...I cannot see how you can reference Claiborne as "moving forward." They have been digressing for years and have almost nothing to offer at all anymore. Their recent history is horrific.
I wish them the best with Strong Hope (by Grand Slam), he is a fine stallion prospect...but Claiborne should have been in the mix for a horse like Speightstown (by Gone West) if they want to attempt to seriously recapture the magic. Maybe they tried, but obviously he's going elsewhere.
I'm confident that Bernie Sams will do the best he can in his capacity at Claiborne, but unfortunately he is working for a guy (Seth H) who seems to know more about UK basketball than what it takes to select a stallion with a high probability of success.
Good luck to Claiborne...it's not even a ghost of what it was for decades.
And Michael, I wouldn't be too concerned about Claiborne "emulating" "some of the high powered marketing staffs" of other farms. Claiborne has very little to market. You cannot market a Kia or even a Chevrolet to a Mercedes or Rolls Royce buyer. Unfortunately that's the apparent state of Claiborne right now.
You wrote that I seem to favor "high profile" "high hype" farms.
Michael, when it comes to stallions...I favor good horses...that are well managed...appropriately marketed...and a positive, quality direction by farm management that has a track record of success...not just for themselves but also for clients.
In my opinion Claiborne (under Seth H) has proved time and again that it has very little to offer...but I do wish them success.
Respectfully
We'll disagree (to some extent) on this one...respectfully.
Their uniqueness did separate them from others. What was unique about Claiborne is that they had the goods. Now they do not...simple as that.
You may (or may not) know that, Peter Brandt (not Seth Hancock) was the point man in the purchase of the necessary shares (in Mr. Prospector) that would enable the stallion to be moved from Savin Farm, Ocala to Claiborne, Paris, Ky. Seth was not the man.
Seth's job was to re-syndicate the horse after the deal was made (based on $500k per share purchase price). That was easy...mainly because the deal was basically a Peter Brandt...Ogden Phipps purchase.
With regard to Danzig...it was deKwiatkowski that got his butt kicked financially when he paid a small fortune for the Northern Dancer yearling (ultimately named Danzig) who was finished after his 3 race career win streak and prior to even starting in a stake. Trainer Woody Stephens talked Seth into standing the horse...so as to relieve some of deKwiatkowski's anguish and to minimize the pressure on Claiborne's beloved trainer (Stephens). If you recall, it was apparent that Seth did not want the horse...syndicating him for $80k per share and standing him for $20k fee was nearly impossible.
But I must say...most of us would rather be lucky than smart. In the case of Danzig, what he turned out to be was nothing more than dumb luck. This was no genius business decision by Seth.
The stallion that Seth DID want very much was Conquistador Cielo...and deKwiatkowski let him have the Belmont winner at Claiborne as payback...because Seth stood Danzig as a favor when everyone snickered at him. Seth believed in Conquistador Cielo and talked many farm clients into buying shares at $1,000,000 apiece (He was a 36 share horse...and the highest priced syndication of all time, at the time).
You must remember that CC was embarassed in the Travers by the unheralded Canadian runner Runaway Groom. Regardless, Seth's selection of Conquistador Cielo turned out to be a poor stallion choice...just another horse. A poor choice by Seth.
Subsequent to Conquistador Cielo, Seth was all-over Devil's Bag...he wanted him desperately. Again Seth got the one he wanted...syndicated him for $1,000,000 per share...as he previously had done with Conquistador Cielo...and once again Seth had selected a stallion that accomplished very little. Another poor Seth choice.
Re: Unbridled, he stood at Gainesway when the deceased Mrs. Genter's son-in-law Bentley Smith decided it was time to syndicate the already successful stallion and turn him into some cash. As you may remember, Unbridled was already experiencing good success. Many farms showed serious interest in Unbridled...including Taylor Made which went to $18 mil +-. Claiborne reportedly went to $20 mil and got the horse, but Michael you must remember, Unbridled was already a success and his future looked very bright. This was not a real gamble, he was a made stallion at the time.
Seth did want Forty Niner...and made the deal with Mrs. Dupont-Lunger's Christiana stables. But Seth gave up on Forty Niner while only his third crop was racing. He said he sold him for $10 mil so that he would have cash to invest in young stallions. Seth put plenty into Proper Reality, Go For Gin and Horse Chesnut. Three more Seth failures.
And let's not forget Coronado's Quest...another Seth selection. He's left the country without any fanfare. Another poor choice by Seth.
Seth has a very poor track record, but I'm sure Bernie Sams will do the best he can to right the ship...but it may be a near impossibility at this time.
In the past Seth (and his father Bull) could always depend on Ogden Phipps having a top-class prospect to enter the stallion ranks at the farm(such as Buckpasser or Bold Ruler were). Not since Seeking the Gold has that happened...and the lower level stakes caliber Phipps race horses seem to end up at Northview in Maryland these days. You know...stallions like the unimportant Phipps-bred Diamond.
Michael...respectfully...I cannot see how you can reference Claiborne as "moving forward." They have been digressing for years and have almost nothing to offer at all anymore. Their recent history is horrific.
I wish them the best with Strong Hope (by Grand Slam), he is a fine stallion prospect...but Claiborne should have been in the mix for a horse like Speightstown (by Gone West) if they want to attempt to seriously recapture the magic. Maybe they tried, but obviously he's going elsewhere.
I'm confident that Bernie Sams will do the best he can in his capacity at Claiborne, but unfortunately he is working for a guy (Seth H) who seems to know more about UK basketball than what it takes to select a stallion with a high probability of success.
Good luck to Claiborne...it's not even a ghost of what it was for decades.
And Michael, I wouldn't be too concerned about Claiborne "emulating" "some of the high powered marketing staffs" of other farms. Claiborne has very little to market. You cannot market a Kia or even a Chevrolet to a Mercedes or Rolls Royce buyer. Unfortunately that's the apparent state of Claiborne right now.
You wrote that I seem to favor "high profile" "high hype" farms.
Michael, when it comes to stallions...I favor good horses...that are well managed...appropriately marketed...and a positive, quality direction by farm management that has a track record of success...not just for themselves but also for clients.
In my opinion Claiborne (under Seth H) has proved time and again that it has very little to offer...but I do wish them success.
Respectfully
I actually applaud Claiborne for not giving up on Arch. Farms and the commercial buyers are way to easy to throw in the towel if a stallion hasn't thrown a major stakes horse by September of his Freshman year. I agree, Arch has taken his time. But, you also know what package you are buying. Has Arch produced a Graded stakes winner from each crop? Yes. Has it been in consecutive years? No. What's the difference? Isn't he producing the goods regardless? My friend and trainer Kenny McPeek sure thinks so. Read the ad how you want. Everyone's homework should be done before they make any horse business decision. You would have then found that you brain thought one thing, but the reality was another. On a similar topic, I have sat at the Keeneland sales and listened to everyone dog High Yield. The best one I heard is that he is throwing brittle bones. The way I analyze it is that he will throw better older horses. I'm sorry to burst any pinhookers' bubbles, but if you lean on these type of horses too soon, regardless of the profile of the stallion, bad things are going to happen. Maybe in two or three years, Coolmore can run a similar ad for High Yield producing a Graded stakes winner in every crop. Then, everyone can jump back on the bandwagon. That is if he hasn't been shipped to Istanbul to stand stud!
Breed a true racehorse, not an expensive pet!
Fos, I disagree with you on several points. Danzig was hardly purchased for a small fortune. Pocket change for de Kwiatkowski is more like it. $300,000 in an era with a Northern Dancer colt was practically guaranteed to sell for a million was pittance.
I also disagree that Conquistador Cielo and Devils Bag were bad stallions. Both are/were solid producers of excellent race horses, something which seems to be what Claiborne is trying to produce, unlike the vast majority (all??) of the other major stallion stations in KY, which are trying to stand stallions for the SALES RING, and to make their money quickly before the stallion is a bust. The Lexington snobbery were kicking Pulpit in the general direction of Turkey before he had a breakout year this year. Had he been at any other farm, he would have been gone before this. It says a lot for Claiborne that they have stood CC and DB for their entire careers.
I see the disturbing trend in KY of keying in on a stallions very first crop. If that first crop doesnt hit the ground running, he's cold as ice IN THE SALE RING, which is the only thing the majority of breeders in KY care about. Perhaps that is why breeders in Florida seem to produce race horses, since the majority of the product grown there is slated for the 2 year olds sales, where the athlete is showcased, not a page.
I also disagree that Conquistador Cielo and Devils Bag were bad stallions. Both are/were solid producers of excellent race horses, something which seems to be what Claiborne is trying to produce, unlike the vast majority (all??) of the other major stallion stations in KY, which are trying to stand stallions for the SALES RING, and to make their money quickly before the stallion is a bust. The Lexington snobbery were kicking Pulpit in the general direction of Turkey before he had a breakout year this year. Had he been at any other farm, he would have been gone before this. It says a lot for Claiborne that they have stood CC and DB for their entire careers.
I see the disturbing trend in KY of keying in on a stallions very first crop. If that first crop doesnt hit the ground running, he's cold as ice IN THE SALE RING, which is the only thing the majority of breeders in KY care about. Perhaps that is why breeders in Florida seem to produce race horses, since the majority of the product grown there is slated for the 2 year olds sales, where the athlete is showcased, not a page.
[i]Seth did want Forty Niner...and made the deal with Mrs. Dupont-Lunger's Christiana stables. But Seth gave up on Forty Niner while only his third crop was racing. He said he sold him for $10 mil so that he would have cash to invest in young stallions. Seth put plenty into Proper Reality, Go For Gin and Horse Chesnut. Three more Seth failures. [/i]
Why would Hancock have to make a deal with Mrs. Lunger concerning Forty Niner? I thought that Forty Niner was a Claiborne homebred.
Why would Hancock have to make a deal with Mrs. Lunger concerning Forty Niner? I thought that Forty Niner was a Claiborne homebred.
-
xfactor fan
- Breeder's Cup Winner
- Posts: 2212
- Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:46 pm
Hi halo
$300,000 for a yearling colt (later named Danzig) by Northern Dancer was a lot of money in 1978. Especially for a Northern Dancer colt out a mare (Pas de Nom) that had a pretty ordinary female family...and was by a less than stellar sire, Admiral's Voyage. Here we are 26 years later and I submit that Danzig's page is still ordinary looking...but it must be said...Danzig proved to be a top-class sire.
Put the $300,000 in perspective...just seven years earlier (in 1971) Mr. Prospector became the highest priced auction yearling of all time at $220,000. That was obviously not a pittance in 1971, and $300,000 in 1978 was not a "pittance" (as you wrote) for a yearling thoroughbred either...particularly for a Northern Dancer with a female family of arguably ordinary caliber...such as Pas de Nom was.
With regard to your comment that Conquistador Cielo and Devil's Bag were not "bad stallions" as you wrote...I offer the following for your consideration.
First of all I did not say they were "bad" you said that. What I did say is that they were "poor choices". History has proved they were poor choices.
CC and DB were each syndicated for $1,000,000 per fractional interest (often referred to as shares). If I recall correctly, each stallion was syndicated into 36 fractional interests. Certainly the expectation of success is proportionate to the cost of the stallion "share." I don't believe it's a stretch to expect that the bar is set significantly lower for (say) a $50,000 per "share" stallion than it would be for a $1 mil per "share" stallion.
With that in mind, I do not believe you would have much success searching out original "share" buyers (that were in at $1 mil per)...that would define the accomplishmnents of either Devil's Bag or Conquistador Cielo as successful.
No matter what you may think...share purchasers (at all levels) are hoping to be the beneficiaries of a successful undertaking.
History has proved, that with Seth Hancock the chances to "come out" on the long end of the stick are minimal.
Seth H has obviously attempted time and again to make decisions that would keep Claiborne at the top. Selections like Proper Reality...Horse Chestnut...Private Terms...Ordway...and Go For Gin (and the decision to sell the top-class Forty Niner) don't bode well to support the contention that Claiborne is being well managed.
Arch will not correct Claiborne's problem, Seeking the Gold is in the twilight of his career, Boundary is okay but that's about it, Go For Gin would basically be a nice regional stallion, Horse Chestnut excites no one...Ordway is (who cares)...Out of Place is a useful stallion that should have stayed in Florida...Private Terms (come on now)...and Pulpit runs hot and colt (Last year he was $60,000 or $75,000, this year he's advertised at $35,000)...Monarchos hopefully will be a good one (but it may be expecting too much of a son of Maria's Mon).
I will say though, Strong Hope (by Grand Slam) may be a good choice. I hope so for the sake of Claiborne.
Claiborne was once great...they were a leader...they always had the goods. Under the leadership and direction of Seth H that dream has diminished significantly.
And by the way...as you may recall Seth sold the stallion Our Emblem for a reported $400k+- prior to his second crop of three year-olds racing. As you may recall, Our Emblem's son War Emblem won the Derby and Preakness...and as a result the still very young Our Emblem was sold back to Kentucky (Win Star and Taylor Made) for a reported $10 mil.
Another misevaluation led to the sale of Forty Niner. Yes the stallion was quiet for a while...but which stallion doesn't experience that? Seth sold Forty Niner for a reported $10 mil...and it seemed like immediately after Forty Niner left the country he started having a non-stop multitude of top-class stakes winners. Another poor decision by Seth.
A shame.
Seth is probably a wonderful guy...but it is clear he has little (if any) vision...and his management skills are dubious at best. Unfortunately Claiborne has suffered the consequences.
Respectfully
$300,000 for a yearling colt (later named Danzig) by Northern Dancer was a lot of money in 1978. Especially for a Northern Dancer colt out a mare (Pas de Nom) that had a pretty ordinary female family...and was by a less than stellar sire, Admiral's Voyage. Here we are 26 years later and I submit that Danzig's page is still ordinary looking...but it must be said...Danzig proved to be a top-class sire.
Put the $300,000 in perspective...just seven years earlier (in 1971) Mr. Prospector became the highest priced auction yearling of all time at $220,000. That was obviously not a pittance in 1971, and $300,000 in 1978 was not a "pittance" (as you wrote) for a yearling thoroughbred either...particularly for a Northern Dancer with a female family of arguably ordinary caliber...such as Pas de Nom was.
With regard to your comment that Conquistador Cielo and Devil's Bag were not "bad stallions" as you wrote...I offer the following for your consideration.
First of all I did not say they were "bad" you said that. What I did say is that they were "poor choices". History has proved they were poor choices.
CC and DB were each syndicated for $1,000,000 per fractional interest (often referred to as shares). If I recall correctly, each stallion was syndicated into 36 fractional interests. Certainly the expectation of success is proportionate to the cost of the stallion "share." I don't believe it's a stretch to expect that the bar is set significantly lower for (say) a $50,000 per "share" stallion than it would be for a $1 mil per "share" stallion.
With that in mind, I do not believe you would have much success searching out original "share" buyers (that were in at $1 mil per)...that would define the accomplishmnents of either Devil's Bag or Conquistador Cielo as successful.
No matter what you may think...share purchasers (at all levels) are hoping to be the beneficiaries of a successful undertaking.
History has proved, that with Seth Hancock the chances to "come out" on the long end of the stick are minimal.
Seth H has obviously attempted time and again to make decisions that would keep Claiborne at the top. Selections like Proper Reality...Horse Chestnut...Private Terms...Ordway...and Go For Gin (and the decision to sell the top-class Forty Niner) don't bode well to support the contention that Claiborne is being well managed.
Arch will not correct Claiborne's problem, Seeking the Gold is in the twilight of his career, Boundary is okay but that's about it, Go For Gin would basically be a nice regional stallion, Horse Chestnut excites no one...Ordway is (who cares)...Out of Place is a useful stallion that should have stayed in Florida...Private Terms (come on now)...and Pulpit runs hot and colt (Last year he was $60,000 or $75,000, this year he's advertised at $35,000)...Monarchos hopefully will be a good one (but it may be expecting too much of a son of Maria's Mon).
I will say though, Strong Hope (by Grand Slam) may be a good choice. I hope so for the sake of Claiborne.
Claiborne was once great...they were a leader...they always had the goods. Under the leadership and direction of Seth H that dream has diminished significantly.
And by the way...as you may recall Seth sold the stallion Our Emblem for a reported $400k+- prior to his second crop of three year-olds racing. As you may recall, Our Emblem's son War Emblem won the Derby and Preakness...and as a result the still very young Our Emblem was sold back to Kentucky (Win Star and Taylor Made) for a reported $10 mil.
Another misevaluation led to the sale of Forty Niner. Yes the stallion was quiet for a while...but which stallion doesn't experience that? Seth sold Forty Niner for a reported $10 mil...and it seemed like immediately after Forty Niner left the country he started having a non-stop multitude of top-class stakes winners. Another poor decision by Seth.
A shame.
Seth is probably a wonderful guy...but it is clear he has little (if any) vision...and his management skills are dubious at best. Unfortunately Claiborne has suffered the consequences.
Respectfully
FOS, I think your harsh criticism of Seth Hancock is unfounded. If you applied the same standard of perfection you use on Seth on Robert Clay and the Taylor boys, I think your conclusions might be somewhat different.
Consider Exploit, Fly So Free, Atticus and Chief's Crown--all major disappointments bought and managed by Clay or Taylor. Point is--even the best horsemen make bad judgements.
Seth has used the expertise and influence of long time patrons such as Peter Brant much as his father used Ogden Phipps. You flog Seth for Brandt's contributions, yet praised his father for taking the same tact with Phipps. What gives?
Horses like Proper Reality were privately owned and only stood at Claiborne. Horse Chestnut stands there as a personal favor by Hancock, as I'm sure others have before. Private Terms was once a very popular and successful stallion, but has fallen on tough times lately. Seth has responded by slashing his stud fee.
Our Emblem was well sold at the time and, except for the freak horse War Emblem, was better off down the road. I certainly don't think Taylor's $10 million purchase of him showed anything but stupidity--their superior marketing skills notwithstanding. Makes the Forty Niner deal pale in comparison, I think.
Lighten up on Claiborne. Their goal is different than Taylor's and, to a lesser to degree, than their cousin Robert Clay's. My bet is they'll be around long after the hype boys have imploded.
Consider Exploit, Fly So Free, Atticus and Chief's Crown--all major disappointments bought and managed by Clay or Taylor. Point is--even the best horsemen make bad judgements.
Seth has used the expertise and influence of long time patrons such as Peter Brant much as his father used Ogden Phipps. You flog Seth for Brandt's contributions, yet praised his father for taking the same tact with Phipps. What gives?
Horses like Proper Reality were privately owned and only stood at Claiborne. Horse Chestnut stands there as a personal favor by Hancock, as I'm sure others have before. Private Terms was once a very popular and successful stallion, but has fallen on tough times lately. Seth has responded by slashing his stud fee.
Our Emblem was well sold at the time and, except for the freak horse War Emblem, was better off down the road. I certainly don't think Taylor's $10 million purchase of him showed anything but stupidity--their superior marketing skills notwithstanding. Makes the Forty Niner deal pale in comparison, I think.
Lighten up on Claiborne. Their goal is different than Taylor's and, to a lesser to degree, than their cousin Robert Clay's. My bet is they'll be around long after the hype boys have imploded.
Last edited by Michael on Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.