Giant's Causeway and the dirt, take 2!
Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, madelyn
Giant's Causeway and the dirt, take 2!
Well, from his first American-bred crop, Giant's Causeway already has a grade 1 winner on the dirt. First Samurai just won today's Hopeful. Given the right mares, GC IS going to be more versatile than originally given credit for.
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TBLADY
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As someone who just bred one mare to his full brother and have another one booked for next season Hubby and I were jumping up and down like school kids! The 2 mares we bred have very different pedigrees...outside of the A+ nicks I think we will see two very versatile horses out of them.
we wanted to stir the pot a little and GC just proved he can do just that!
we wanted to stir the pot a little and GC just proved he can do just that!
Fins to the Left....
Oh yes, Im sure that the grade 1 winning undefeated (on dirt!) First Samurai got his talent from his dam, the grade 1 winning, er I mean the grade 2 winning, well shoot, how about the grade 3 winning.....well rats, I mean the LISTED stakes winner Freddie Frission. He had to get the talent and precocity from her, after all she was a stakes winner at 2, I mean 3, oops must be 4, well damn, she was 5 years old when she finally won a stakes, the Holiday Inaugural Stakes race at Turfway Park.
Yes, certainly the talent came from the dam in this case. Good call, FOS.
Yes, certainly the talent came from the dam in this case. Good call, FOS.
hi halo
You miss the point !!!
I suggest that the Stakes Winning mare Freddie Frisson (by Dixieland Band out of a Fappiano out of a Reviewer out of a Graustark) brought the physical prowess to the table.
The mares move Giant's Causeway up. "It's about the mares...it's NOT about him."
If you see it otherwise...good for you.
See ya.
Respectfully
You miss the point !!!
I suggest that the Stakes Winning mare Freddie Frisson (by Dixieland Band out of a Fappiano out of a Reviewer out of a Graustark) brought the physical prowess to the table.
The mares move Giant's Causeway up. "It's about the mares...it's NOT about him."
If you see it otherwise...good for you.
See ya.
Respectfully
Could it possibly be that the DNA in an offspring is partly sire and partly dam and in any given case - it's quality of the ingrediants and the roll of the genetic dice that determines the get?
Oh, no, I forgot. It's either the stallion or the mare that determine if you get a grade 1 offspring. Silly me.
~Adrienne
(edited for clarity:) )
Oh, no, I forgot. It's either the stallion or the mare that determine if you get a grade 1 offspring. Silly me.
~Adrienne
(edited for clarity:) )
I was merely attempting to point out that, contrary to what some have argued, Giant's Causeway is going to get versatile runners. I would have thought it'd be obvious that both parents contribute 50% of their genes to their offspring.
I have no idea why FOS has a personal vendetta against GC- no one is forcing him/her to breed to GC/buy his offspring, etc. I can only hope that GC continues to prove his supporters right.
I have no idea why FOS has a personal vendetta against GC- no one is forcing him/her to breed to GC/buy his offspring, etc. I can only hope that GC continues to prove his supporters right.
hi ef...hi adrienne...hi guys
Plato is credited with saying...Excellent things are rare
That being said...I offer credit where credit is due. In the case of Giant's Causeway...he was an excellent racehorse.
We might agree that being bred to a HUGE volume of producers and runners of excellence certainly enhances a stallions chances for success. In the case of Giant's Causeway he has arguably been bred to the largest books of broodmares (with credentials of excellence) that any young stallion (or possibly any stallion of any age) has EVER received in the history of the breed.
I expect and have indicated that it wouldn't surprise me if he comes up with a number of top-class runners...turf and dirt. But the fact that his percentages are so paltry...despite his opportunities being so incredibly excellent...have clearly suggested (the way I see it anyway) that he is the weak link in the matings.
If GC had impressive percentages (of stakes winners...winners etc) to match the excellent opportunity and BIG stud fee...I'd be all over him. He does not...therefore I am not.
I suggest that he is one of the most dangerous stallions to breed to in the northern hemisphere...in relation to his stud fee US$200,000.
I welcome anyone to make their case for a stallion or sire...but I don't expect that anyone could convince me (unless there is some new and compelling evidence) that he is worthy a US$200,000 stud fee.
I suggest that any manager that bred their stallion to the incredibly diverse and HUGE books of mares (like GC did) and got results like GC is getting percentage-wise...might dial 911. We're not talking good books...but INCREDIBLE books. HUGE books that include some of the worlds GREATEST runners and/or producers...mares by some of the most important broodmare sires (and the same might be said for 2nd, 3rd and 4th dams etc)...and many mares from some of the greatest families that are in production today...that is what GC's books looks like (for starters)...WOW.
That being said...without significant help from his mares...it appears that GC often gets lightweight offspring...maybe Rahy-like is a fair description for some. Sometimes they might become wonderful racehorses...but arguably that kind can be difficult to sell...hmmm.
Breed GC to a stakes-winning Dixieland Band mare that earned approx $250,000 that's out of a Fappiano mare that's out of a Reviewer that's out of a Graustark...and there's a chance that the stallion (Giant's Causeway) that often get's what I might describe as lightweights, might get a big...powerhouse...robust...3-yo-like 2-yo colt, like First Samurai.
It appears to me that Giant's Causeway does not move his mares up (physically anyway)...it further appears (to me anyway) that his mares have to overcome his lack of prowess to produce the good ones (on the dirt in the US anyway).
Is it unreasonable to suggest that Giant's Causeway's missing something...that if he wasn't he'd be getting a high percentage of stakes-winners and winners. Is it unreasonable to expect that he would have 15% (maybe even higher) stakes winners (plus an impressive percentage of winners) from the opportunities (not the least of which are the abundance of GREAT mares) he's received. Is it unreasonable to suggest that All Things Considered...he's had limited success. Is it unreasonable to suggest that he has NO excuses...NONE.
Is it unreasonable to suggest that his accomplishmnets just don't tag him as an important sire worth a $200k stud fee. Furthermore...unless his percentages increase...I suggest that pointing to a nice one (such as First Samurai) to rationalize or imply that he's an important sire...just won't cut it. All things considered...I suggest that GC is NOT a horse that you or I need...not for $200,000 certainly.
Let those who have money to burn...throw it in the direction of GC. Chances are they'll burn plenty. He is NOT a value play by any stretch of the imagination. And I suggest he is the kind of horse that all too often will get you exactly the kind of foal that you don't want...OUCH. He's the kind of sire that I could only recommend someone consider breeding to under the rarest of circumstances.
The smart money will go to auction and select a good one (they seem to be few and far between)...unfortunately, most breeders will be stung...OUCH again.
I suggest that the chances of breeding a good one by GC are too slim to justify a US$200k stud fee...but I also suggest that First Samurai might be a very good horse.
Best to you.
Respectfully
Plato is credited with saying...Excellent things are rare
That being said...I offer credit where credit is due. In the case of Giant's Causeway...he was an excellent racehorse.
We might agree that being bred to a HUGE volume of producers and runners of excellence certainly enhances a stallions chances for success. In the case of Giant's Causeway he has arguably been bred to the largest books of broodmares (with credentials of excellence) that any young stallion (or possibly any stallion of any age) has EVER received in the history of the breed.
I expect and have indicated that it wouldn't surprise me if he comes up with a number of top-class runners...turf and dirt. But the fact that his percentages are so paltry...despite his opportunities being so incredibly excellent...have clearly suggested (the way I see it anyway) that he is the weak link in the matings.
If GC had impressive percentages (of stakes winners...winners etc) to match the excellent opportunity and BIG stud fee...I'd be all over him. He does not...therefore I am not.
I suggest that he is one of the most dangerous stallions to breed to in the northern hemisphere...in relation to his stud fee US$200,000.
I welcome anyone to make their case for a stallion or sire...but I don't expect that anyone could convince me (unless there is some new and compelling evidence) that he is worthy a US$200,000 stud fee.
I suggest that any manager that bred their stallion to the incredibly diverse and HUGE books of mares (like GC did) and got results like GC is getting percentage-wise...might dial 911. We're not talking good books...but INCREDIBLE books. HUGE books that include some of the worlds GREATEST runners and/or producers...mares by some of the most important broodmare sires (and the same might be said for 2nd, 3rd and 4th dams etc)...and many mares from some of the greatest families that are in production today...that is what GC's books looks like (for starters)...WOW.
That being said...without significant help from his mares...it appears that GC often gets lightweight offspring...maybe Rahy-like is a fair description for some. Sometimes they might become wonderful racehorses...but arguably that kind can be difficult to sell...hmmm.
Breed GC to a stakes-winning Dixieland Band mare that earned approx $250,000 that's out of a Fappiano mare that's out of a Reviewer that's out of a Graustark...and there's a chance that the stallion (Giant's Causeway) that often get's what I might describe as lightweights, might get a big...powerhouse...robust...3-yo-like 2-yo colt, like First Samurai.
It appears to me that Giant's Causeway does not move his mares up (physically anyway)...it further appears (to me anyway) that his mares have to overcome his lack of prowess to produce the good ones (on the dirt in the US anyway).
Is it unreasonable to suggest that Giant's Causeway's missing something...that if he wasn't he'd be getting a high percentage of stakes-winners and winners. Is it unreasonable to expect that he would have 15% (maybe even higher) stakes winners (plus an impressive percentage of winners) from the opportunities (not the least of which are the abundance of GREAT mares) he's received. Is it unreasonable to suggest that All Things Considered...he's had limited success. Is it unreasonable to suggest that he has NO excuses...NONE.
Is it unreasonable to suggest that his accomplishmnets just don't tag him as an important sire worth a $200k stud fee. Furthermore...unless his percentages increase...I suggest that pointing to a nice one (such as First Samurai) to rationalize or imply that he's an important sire...just won't cut it. All things considered...I suggest that GC is NOT a horse that you or I need...not for $200,000 certainly.
Let those who have money to burn...throw it in the direction of GC. Chances are they'll burn plenty. He is NOT a value play by any stretch of the imagination. And I suggest he is the kind of horse that all too often will get you exactly the kind of foal that you don't want...OUCH. He's the kind of sire that I could only recommend someone consider breeding to under the rarest of circumstances.
The smart money will go to auction and select a good one (they seem to be few and far between)...unfortunately, most breeders will be stung...OUCH again.
I suggest that the chances of breeding a good one by GC are too slim to justify a US$200k stud fee...but I also suggest that First Samurai might be a very good horse.
Best to you.
Respectfully
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TBLADY
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LOL FOS I must know who do you consider a GREAT stallion?
I gotta know cause so far you seem to have SOUR grapes about eveything with a hint of promise no matter who hes been bred to!
I have a breeder friend in Austl. She works on the largest PRIVATELY owned farm in the country. According to her they are tripping over themselves in Austrl, NZ, Engl, Irl to get a breeding to GC and now that hes not going to run back and forth it looks like their supply just ran dry...I do feel his sons have yet earned a right to be considered GREAT stallion prospects just on a handful of races.
Again who do you consider a GREAT stallion...past or present and who would you consider as a great up and coming stallion...price not a consideration at this point.
I gotta know cause so far you seem to have SOUR grapes about eveything with a hint of promise no matter who hes been bred to!
I have a breeder friend in Austl. She works on the largest PRIVATELY owned farm in the country. According to her they are tripping over themselves in Austrl, NZ, Engl, Irl to get a breeding to GC and now that hes not going to run back and forth it looks like their supply just ran dry...I do feel his sons have yet earned a right to be considered GREAT stallion prospects just on a handful of races.
Again who do you consider a GREAT stallion...past or present and who would you consider as a great up and coming stallion...price not a consideration at this point.
Fins to the Left....
hi TBLADY
You ask "...who do you consider a GREAT stallion...past or present..."
How about Mr Prospector and Northern Dancer for starters.
You wrote "I have a breeder friend in Austl. She works on the largest PRIVATELY owned farm in the country. According to her they are tripping over themselves in Austrl, NZ, Engl, Irl to get a breeding to GC..."
TBLADY...you indicate "they are tripping over themselves...to get a breeding to GC." Why? No tripping necessary...Ashford might play the hard-to-get-game...but that's part of their marketing technique. Hilarious as far as I'm concerned. If you've got the cash (to satisfy whatever the stud fee is that day or week
)...you'll get the contract.
TBLADY...I suggest that a breeder that signs a contract to breed to GC at US$200,000 has a VERY STRONG probability of taking it on the chin. If money is no object...go for it. This business is getting tougher and tougher (in North America anyway). Anyone that hasn't recognized that is probably in store for a VERY rude awakening...unless money is of no object.
Respectfully...I suggest that GC at US$200K is unjustified...although it's probably reasonable to suggest that just about anything can be rationalized...hmmm. If you get the exceptional one (and they are very few and far between) you might be okay. But there is arguably a VERY limited market for GC's and there are all too many that won't pass muster. I expect the risk v reward scenario is difficult to justify for any breeder that does not have $200k to burn.
If you and your friends believe he is good value at $200k, good luck...but I suggest that the chances of a VERY RUDE AWAKENING at foaling time is very possibly (I've seen the results all too often).
You ask "...who would you consider as a great up and coming stallion...price not a consideration at this point."
Great is a big word...but for starters...I suggest tht Successful Appeal is great value (maybe incredible is a better word) at $25,000...and it's difficult to ignore Montjeu at E45,000+-.
Some other relatively young stallions (some with runners...some not yet with runners) that might be considered very good (or at the least good) value might include Vindication at $60k...Stormy Atlantic at $15,000 (he is arguably on the verge to step up to another level)...I suggest that Yes It's True is good value at $25,000...at the lower end of the stud fee spectrum, Concerto could be considered good value and an up and comer at $3,500...and the word is out on Full Mandate at $5,000 and the good percentage of high quality foals he is getting...and Sky Mesa at $30k is just too well-made...strong and good-looking to ignore. There are MANY up and comers with a real chance for success.
Songandaprayer was certainly good value at $10,000...they looked the part...sold well...and appear to have ability. It'll be interesting to see what his stud fee will be set at for 2006. Many El Corredors look the part and sold well...he is certainly worthy of consideration. They look like two more "up and coming stallion(s)" (your description), wouldn't you agree?
Northern Afleet was GREAT value at $12,500 (remember he started at approx $5k+-)...and is an outstanding "up and coming stallion" (your words), in my opinion.
I suggest that GC has sired a VERY SMALL percentage of stakes winners (although certainly some were/are very good), and All Things Considered it appears he is overpriced as a result of masterful management of hype...spin...advertising and promotion. Unfortunately his stud fee has little or no relation to his numbers and stats. I suggest BEWARE...and scrutinize everything about GC very closely. Be independent, honest and thorough in your evaluation process. If after you've done your due diligence and you believe he is worthy of $200k...go for it. I suggest that All Things Considered (including his $200k stud fee and the risk reward scenario)...he is NOT a stallion that I am interested in.
It might be fair to say that too many breeders (particularly as of late) are getting hurt (if not crushed) at the sales. An extremely high percentage of yearlings are not selling for even the stud fees...and RNA's are growing.
I suggest that the sales game is more and more about the INDIVIDUAL and less and less about the pedigree (including the sire). If you've got both...great...but if you don't have the individual that might inspire potential buyers you're probably going to lose plenty of cash (and a BIG stud fee in an uninspiring individual certainly can't help the cause). Certainly the 2-yo in training sales are another option (and there are no guarantees there) and the race track is also an option (and certainly there are no guarantees there either).
Take a look at GC's sales results (then try to determine what might be fact or fiction)...then take a look at the percentages of stakes-winners GC gets. If you are willing to take the chances that those numbers and stats offer...go for it. And if you are satisfied the risks v rewards scenarios make sense to you...go for it.
I certainly appreciate your insights and hope you have success.
Respectfully
You ask "...who do you consider a GREAT stallion...past or present..."
How about Mr Prospector and Northern Dancer for starters.
You wrote "I have a breeder friend in Austl. She works on the largest PRIVATELY owned farm in the country. According to her they are tripping over themselves in Austrl, NZ, Engl, Irl to get a breeding to GC..."
TBLADY...you indicate "they are tripping over themselves...to get a breeding to GC." Why? No tripping necessary...Ashford might play the hard-to-get-game...but that's part of their marketing technique. Hilarious as far as I'm concerned. If you've got the cash (to satisfy whatever the stud fee is that day or week
)...you'll get the contract.
TBLADY...I suggest that a breeder that signs a contract to breed to GC at US$200,000 has a VERY STRONG probability of taking it on the chin. If money is no object...go for it. This business is getting tougher and tougher (in North America anyway). Anyone that hasn't recognized that is probably in store for a VERY rude awakening...unless money is of no object.
Respectfully...I suggest that GC at US$200K is unjustified...although it's probably reasonable to suggest that just about anything can be rationalized...hmmm. If you get the exceptional one (and they are very few and far between) you might be okay. But there is arguably a VERY limited market for GC's and there are all too many that won't pass muster. I expect the risk v reward scenario is difficult to justify for any breeder that does not have $200k to burn.
If you and your friends believe he is good value at $200k, good luck...but I suggest that the chances of a VERY RUDE AWAKENING at foaling time is very possibly (I've seen the results all too often).
You ask "...who would you consider as a great up and coming stallion...price not a consideration at this point."
Great is a big word...but for starters...I suggest tht Successful Appeal is great value (maybe incredible is a better word) at $25,000...and it's difficult to ignore Montjeu at E45,000+-.
Some other relatively young stallions (some with runners...some not yet with runners) that might be considered very good (or at the least good) value might include Vindication at $60k...Stormy Atlantic at $15,000 (he is arguably on the verge to step up to another level)...I suggest that Yes It's True is good value at $25,000...at the lower end of the stud fee spectrum, Concerto could be considered good value and an up and comer at $3,500...and the word is out on Full Mandate at $5,000 and the good percentage of high quality foals he is getting...and Sky Mesa at $30k is just too well-made...strong and good-looking to ignore. There are MANY up and comers with a real chance for success.
Songandaprayer was certainly good value at $10,000...they looked the part...sold well...and appear to have ability. It'll be interesting to see what his stud fee will be set at for 2006. Many El Corredors look the part and sold well...he is certainly worthy of consideration. They look like two more "up and coming stallion(s)" (your description), wouldn't you agree?
Northern Afleet was GREAT value at $12,500 (remember he started at approx $5k+-)...and is an outstanding "up and coming stallion" (your words), in my opinion.
I suggest that GC has sired a VERY SMALL percentage of stakes winners (although certainly some were/are very good), and All Things Considered it appears he is overpriced as a result of masterful management of hype...spin...advertising and promotion. Unfortunately his stud fee has little or no relation to his numbers and stats. I suggest BEWARE...and scrutinize everything about GC very closely. Be independent, honest and thorough in your evaluation process. If after you've done your due diligence and you believe he is worthy of $200k...go for it. I suggest that All Things Considered (including his $200k stud fee and the risk reward scenario)...he is NOT a stallion that I am interested in.
It might be fair to say that too many breeders (particularly as of late) are getting hurt (if not crushed) at the sales. An extremely high percentage of yearlings are not selling for even the stud fees...and RNA's are growing.
I suggest that the sales game is more and more about the INDIVIDUAL and less and less about the pedigree (including the sire). If you've got both...great...but if you don't have the individual that might inspire potential buyers you're probably going to lose plenty of cash (and a BIG stud fee in an uninspiring individual certainly can't help the cause). Certainly the 2-yo in training sales are another option (and there are no guarantees there) and the race track is also an option (and certainly there are no guarantees there either).
Take a look at GC's sales results (then try to determine what might be fact or fiction)...then take a look at the percentages of stakes-winners GC gets. If you are willing to take the chances that those numbers and stats offer...go for it. And if you are satisfied the risks v rewards scenarios make sense to you...go for it.
I certainly appreciate your insights and hope you have success.
Respectfully
I'm going to defend FOS here. GC is overpriced given his accomplishments and I would say that his success depends heavily on the type of mares he sees. He was certainly a fantastic racehorse. No one disputes that, but one might argue that his bodytype is such that he needs a little help from his mares to get successful horses on the dirt with regularity. His first crop consisted of 150 foals and he gotten about 72.6% to the track (which is very good), but only 32.6% of that crop have managed to get their picture taken with 4.7% taking stakes (not bad for a first year horse, but not worthy of $200,00).
I think he is a commerical risk if you breed to him now because eventually the hype will wear off and I would hate to be holding the bag at $200,000. I honestly don't think this horse is that bad a stallion, but I think he needs a more intensively managed book which Coolmore is not going to give him. I do think that given what he has done he is well overpriced. With regards to Austrailia, you have to remember he stands for considerably less there and he has shown he can the big horse on turf. I think at best you can be cautious about his performance as a dirt sire until next year. Lord knows he will have hundreds of opportunities.
It will be interesting to see how he fairs with regards to his two lower priced kin Freud and Roar of the Tiger especially with Roar of the Tiger being in Florida and having access to alot of speed heavy lines.
In closing, I agree its too early to call GC an unqualified success as a dirt sire. I also think he's too aggressively priced given his accomplishments and that he would benefit from a more selective book. He's got the genetic goods to be something very special, but the big books and the early retirements of his star runners aren't helping. I would pony up on the daughters though because I think he'll be a fine broodmare sire.
I think he is a commerical risk if you breed to him now because eventually the hype will wear off and I would hate to be holding the bag at $200,000. I honestly don't think this horse is that bad a stallion, but I think he needs a more intensively managed book which Coolmore is not going to give him. I do think that given what he has done he is well overpriced. With regards to Austrailia, you have to remember he stands for considerably less there and he has shown he can the big horse on turf. I think at best you can be cautious about his performance as a dirt sire until next year. Lord knows he will have hundreds of opportunities.
It will be interesting to see how he fairs with regards to his two lower priced kin Freud and Roar of the Tiger especially with Roar of the Tiger being in Florida and having access to alot of speed heavy lines.
In closing, I agree its too early to call GC an unqualified success as a dirt sire. I also think he's too aggressively priced given his accomplishments and that he would benefit from a more selective book. He's got the genetic goods to be something very special, but the big books and the early retirements of his star runners aren't helping. I would pony up on the daughters though because I think he'll be a fine broodmare sire.
Dear FOS,
GC is not worth 200k he is worth a multiple of that.. What more do you want this guy to accomplish? Keep praising Smart Strike for his super high percentage of allowance quality winners.LOL I don't think this forum will ever get the fact that if you want a a grade 1 or group 1 winner you have to over pay to get one. AP INDY is 300k for what? Plodders who win at 4 going 10 plus furlongs? Or maybe you love Grand Slam at 100k or better yet Elusive Quality at 125k or Awesome Again and his non starters... GC is a dominant sire and will champion more graded and group winners then Grand Slam, Smart Strike, Fu Peg,and EQ combined. Geez its not about the frogs it's about the stars even if the percentages don't add up. If you want the best it costs.
GC is not worth 200k he is worth a multiple of that.. What more do you want this guy to accomplish? Keep praising Smart Strike for his super high percentage of allowance quality winners.LOL I don't think this forum will ever get the fact that if you want a a grade 1 or group 1 winner you have to over pay to get one. AP INDY is 300k for what? Plodders who win at 4 going 10 plus furlongs? Or maybe you love Grand Slam at 100k or better yet Elusive Quality at 125k or Awesome Again and his non starters... GC is a dominant sire and will champion more graded and group winners then Grand Slam, Smart Strike, Fu Peg,and EQ combined. Geez its not about the frogs it's about the stars even if the percentages don't add up. If you want the best it costs.
hi freddymo
You wrote "GC is a dominant sire and will champion more graded and group winners then Grand Slam, Smart Strike, Fu Peg,and EQ combined."
I have to disagree vehemently with you freddymo...I suggest Giant's Causeway IS NOT a dominant sire. For starters...take a glance at First Samurai...there is NOTHING about this 3-yo-like 2-yo...that looks Giant's Causeway (who generally gets physical lightweights). Furthermore...if GC was a "dominant sire" (your words)...I suggest that coupled with the incredible and HUGE books he's been bred to...his percentages would be stratospheric (not paltry as they are). All things considered...I suggest his stud fee is way out of line at $200k.
In response to your comment that GC will get "more graded and group winners than Grand Slam, Smart Strike, Fu Peg and EQ combined" (your words)...(highly unlikely...my words)...but if so it'll only be because he'll have 1000 (excuse the sarcasm) more foals than those four combined.
You wrote "GC is not worth 200k he is worth a multiple of that." Respectfully freddymo...ridiculous or hilarious...take your pick. I am confident (or at least hope) that you would not be so cavalier with your money.
freddymo you wrote "Geez its not about the frogs it's about the stars even if the percentages don't add up. If you want the best it costs."
Consider this freddymo. Let's look at some of the North American graded stakes races this past weekend.
1/ the G1-Ballerina S...won by Happy Ticket (by Anet...$5,000 stud fee)
2/ the G1-Del Mar Debutante...won by Wild Fit (by Wild Wonder...$5,000 stud fee)
3/ the G1-King's Bishop...won by Lost In The Fog (by Lost Soldier $7,500 stud fee)
4/ the G1- Travers...won by Flower Alley (by Distorted Humor $60,000 stud fee)
5/ the G1-Personal Ensign...won by Shadow Cast (by Smart Strike...$25,000 stud fee)
6/ the G2-Spinaway...won by Adieu (by El Corredor...$20,000 stud fee)
7/ the G2-Del Mar H...won by Leprechaun Kid (by Alphabet Soup...$20,000 stud fee)
8/ the Fourstardave H...won by Leroidesanimaux[BRZ] (by Candy Stripes...stud fee unknown...but probably not much)
8/ the G3-Can-Canadian Derby ($250,000)...won by Alabama Rain (by Vying Victor...Can$5,000 stud fee).
And what about this year's classic winners...
1/ the G1-Ky Derby-won by Giacomo (by Holy Bull...$15,000 stud fee)
2/ the G1-Preakness-won by Afleet Alex (by Northern Afleet...$12,500 stud fee)
3/ the G1-Belmont-won by Afleet Alex (by Northern Afleet...$12,500 stud fee
sorry freddymo...in response to what you wrote ("Geez its not about the frogs it's about the stars even if the percentages don't add up. If you want the best it costs.") I offer...it's not necessary to spend $200k today on a stud fee to get a graded stakes winner...even a G1 winner. The proof is in the pudding.
If you like GC...that's fine...but I suggest there are a lot better (and safer) places for a breeder to fork over his/her $212,000 cash (can't forget the $12k sales tax).
Best to you.
Respectfully
You wrote "GC is a dominant sire and will champion more graded and group winners then Grand Slam, Smart Strike, Fu Peg,and EQ combined."
I have to disagree vehemently with you freddymo...I suggest Giant's Causeway IS NOT a dominant sire. For starters...take a glance at First Samurai...there is NOTHING about this 3-yo-like 2-yo...that looks Giant's Causeway (who generally gets physical lightweights). Furthermore...if GC was a "dominant sire" (your words)...I suggest that coupled with the incredible and HUGE books he's been bred to...his percentages would be stratospheric (not paltry as they are). All things considered...I suggest his stud fee is way out of line at $200k.
In response to your comment that GC will get "more graded and group winners than Grand Slam, Smart Strike, Fu Peg and EQ combined" (your words)...(highly unlikely...my words)...but if so it'll only be because he'll have 1000 (excuse the sarcasm) more foals than those four combined.
You wrote "GC is not worth 200k he is worth a multiple of that." Respectfully freddymo...ridiculous or hilarious...take your pick. I am confident (or at least hope) that you would not be so cavalier with your money.
freddymo you wrote "Geez its not about the frogs it's about the stars even if the percentages don't add up. If you want the best it costs."
Consider this freddymo. Let's look at some of the North American graded stakes races this past weekend.
1/ the G1-Ballerina S...won by Happy Ticket (by Anet...$5,000 stud fee)
2/ the G1-Del Mar Debutante...won by Wild Fit (by Wild Wonder...$5,000 stud fee)
3/ the G1-King's Bishop...won by Lost In The Fog (by Lost Soldier $7,500 stud fee)
4/ the G1- Travers...won by Flower Alley (by Distorted Humor $60,000 stud fee)
5/ the G1-Personal Ensign...won by Shadow Cast (by Smart Strike...$25,000 stud fee)
6/ the G2-Spinaway...won by Adieu (by El Corredor...$20,000 stud fee)
7/ the G2-Del Mar H...won by Leprechaun Kid (by Alphabet Soup...$20,000 stud fee)
8/ the Fourstardave H...won by Leroidesanimaux[BRZ] (by Candy Stripes...stud fee unknown...but probably not much)
8/ the G3-Can-Canadian Derby ($250,000)...won by Alabama Rain (by Vying Victor...Can$5,000 stud fee).
And what about this year's classic winners...
1/ the G1-Ky Derby-won by Giacomo (by Holy Bull...$15,000 stud fee)
2/ the G1-Preakness-won by Afleet Alex (by Northern Afleet...$12,500 stud fee)
3/ the G1-Belmont-won by Afleet Alex (by Northern Afleet...$12,500 stud fee
sorry freddymo...in response to what you wrote ("Geez its not about the frogs it's about the stars even if the percentages don't add up. If you want the best it costs.") I offer...it's not necessary to spend $200k today on a stud fee to get a graded stakes winner...even a G1 winner. The proof is in the pudding.
If you like GC...that's fine...but I suggest there are a lot better (and safer) places for a breeder to fork over his/her $212,000 cash (can't forget the $12k sales tax).
Best to you.
Respectfully
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TBLADY
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I will agree that I think his fee is a bit pricey. WAY beyond my pocketbook by all accounts. However, he is seeing a nice book of mares and considering he has seen fairly large books each year I guess all of these people are wrong.
FOS you do bring up very good points...however, I think those same points can be made about ANY STALLION at stud today...especially those standing for more then $100,000.00
FOS you do bring up very good points...however, I think those same points can be made about ANY STALLION at stud today...especially those standing for more then $100,000.00
Fins to the Left....
hi TBLADY
I appreciate your comments...
AND...
...you touched on what I might connect to some other possible reasons for concern re: Giant's Causeway's prowess as a sire...and as it might relate to his $200k stud fee etc.
You wrote "...you do bring up very good points...however, I think those same points can be made about ANY STALLION at stud today...especially those standing for more then $100,000.00"
Maybe so...but you might consider some examples...El Prado started out at $10,000...was bred to what might be described for the most part as ordinary to average mares, and he made it to the $100,000 stud fee level (he had 20% stakes winners from his 1st crop)...Elusive Quality started at $10,000...was bred to mares that you might expect a $10k stud fee might attract and sired champions in his first two crops (dirt and turf) and earned his way to the $100k stud fee level (he got 14% stakes-winners from his first crop)...even Storm Cat started at $20,000+-...had limited support and worked his way up to the stratosphere (he got 18% stakes-winners from his first crop)...etc etc etc.
The list goes on and on of stallions that proved their prowess as sires despite limited opportunities (maybe an understatement)...and many (most is probably a better description) do not stand for $100,000 or more. Some examples...what about Distorted Humor who started at $7,500 or $10,000...he came up with a Ky Derby winner and champion in his first crop and has worked his way up...he's $60,000 (not even $100,000), (and he got 14% stakes-winners from his first crop)...Dynaformer started at $5,000+- and wasn't bred to much, worked his way up, and stood in 2005 for $75k (for what it's worth he got 11% stakes-winners from his first crop)...Northern Afleet started at $5,000+- (bumped to $12,500 for 2005) and has a dual classic winner (Afleet Alex) from his third crop (Northern gfleet sired 13% stakes-winners from his first crop). And for what it's worth...Northern Afleet's first three crops total 115 named foals...that is not even as large as Giant's Causeway's first northern hemisphere crop (137 named foals). You might want to put all this into some real perspective.
You might also consider this...Giant's Causeway started at the equivalent of US$115,000+- (in Ireland) and was bred to arguably the largest book of exceptional mares that any stallion in the history of the breed was ever bred to. Among those mares were no less than 40 TOP mares from North America.
From my perspective...Giant's Causeway had INCREDIBLE, probably UNPRECEDENTED OPPORTUNITY...and everything his way...Quantity...Quality and Opportunity.
As far as I was concerned he was good value at the outset...he was a brilliant super-star racehorse that had all the appeal and a fine pedigree. Then, after having seen him in the flesh...it was immediately clear (to me anyway) that he was weak in the Physical category (as far as a potential sire of TOP horses on the dirt was concerned anyway).
Fast forward...when I saw MANY of his first crop...what I saw did not surprise me. I saw lightweights (that to a large degree were similar to him...and I'm not so sure that Rahy isn't coming through on a regular basis...hmmm...size-wise anyway. Body types that might be acceptable for the turf...but in my estimation...NOT for the dirt.
After I saw MANY of his second crop it became even clearer to me that he needed more (what I might refer to as) the powerhouse-type mare if he was to make it (at least to some degree) as a sire of dirt runners in North America. It was clear (to me anyway...and based on what I've seen) that he did not offer (except maybe on a rare occasion, that I've yet to see) much in the way of size...bone...substance...quarters...forearm...strong pasterns etc etc, on his own....and he needed help from his mares. If he was dominant in any category...it was that he consistently seemed to get lightweights...leaning toward fragile, and with pasterns to match...Ouch.
It appears that his Hopeful winner First Samurai may have been the result of breeding to an American-type (for lack of a better description) mare that offered everything physical that GC did not (or could not) offer. Consider this...First Samurai's dam is by arguably one of North America's premier (and still standing at stud) broodmare sires...Dixieland Band...and is out of a Fappiano (known to get powerhouse horses) that is out of a Reviewer (known for his very big...powerful offspring) that is out of a Graustark (Wow in my book). It appears to have worked...
...even on ESPN First Samurai was described as looking like a three or four year-old (when in the paddock for the Hopeful) with two-year-olds. Roving Boy seemed to confirm the thought when he wrote (Mon Aug 29, 2005 6:46 am) "WOW! When I saw First Samurai in the paddock Saturday he was a man among boys! Henny Hughes is a nice attractive horse, very much his father, but he did not have the maturity nor was he physically imposing as First Samurai was."
TBLADY...All Things Considered...I don't see GC as the kind of horse that can help most commercial breeders...even if they're willing to shell out $200k (plus tax of course). He's a horse that I might recommend a foal share with (if the right kind of mare was being considered). Even then...I cannot ignore the fact that with what might be considered the right kind of mares...I've seen GC get too many of the wrong kind of foals.
As you know...I suggest that if someone, anyone is sold on Giant's Causeway...I say go for it. But I find him to be unconvincing and generally a dangerous choice at US$200,000.
Best to you.
Respectfully
I appreciate your comments...
AND...
...you touched on what I might connect to some other possible reasons for concern re: Giant's Causeway's prowess as a sire...and as it might relate to his $200k stud fee etc.
You wrote "...you do bring up very good points...however, I think those same points can be made about ANY STALLION at stud today...especially those standing for more then $100,000.00"
Maybe so...but you might consider some examples...El Prado started out at $10,000...was bred to what might be described for the most part as ordinary to average mares, and he made it to the $100,000 stud fee level (he had 20% stakes winners from his 1st crop)...Elusive Quality started at $10,000...was bred to mares that you might expect a $10k stud fee might attract and sired champions in his first two crops (dirt and turf) and earned his way to the $100k stud fee level (he got 14% stakes-winners from his first crop)...even Storm Cat started at $20,000+-...had limited support and worked his way up to the stratosphere (he got 18% stakes-winners from his first crop)...etc etc etc.
The list goes on and on of stallions that proved their prowess as sires despite limited opportunities (maybe an understatement)...and many (most is probably a better description) do not stand for $100,000 or more. Some examples...what about Distorted Humor who started at $7,500 or $10,000...he came up with a Ky Derby winner and champion in his first crop and has worked his way up...he's $60,000 (not even $100,000), (and he got 14% stakes-winners from his first crop)...Dynaformer started at $5,000+- and wasn't bred to much, worked his way up, and stood in 2005 for $75k (for what it's worth he got 11% stakes-winners from his first crop)...Northern Afleet started at $5,000+- (bumped to $12,500 for 2005) and has a dual classic winner (Afleet Alex) from his third crop (Northern gfleet sired 13% stakes-winners from his first crop). And for what it's worth...Northern Afleet's first three crops total 115 named foals...that is not even as large as Giant's Causeway's first northern hemisphere crop (137 named foals). You might want to put all this into some real perspective.
You might also consider this...Giant's Causeway started at the equivalent of US$115,000+- (in Ireland) and was bred to arguably the largest book of exceptional mares that any stallion in the history of the breed was ever bred to. Among those mares were no less than 40 TOP mares from North America.
From my perspective...Giant's Causeway had INCREDIBLE, probably UNPRECEDENTED OPPORTUNITY...and everything his way...Quantity...Quality and Opportunity.
As far as I was concerned he was good value at the outset...he was a brilliant super-star racehorse that had all the appeal and a fine pedigree. Then, after having seen him in the flesh...it was immediately clear (to me anyway) that he was weak in the Physical category (as far as a potential sire of TOP horses on the dirt was concerned anyway).
Fast forward...when I saw MANY of his first crop...what I saw did not surprise me. I saw lightweights (that to a large degree were similar to him...and I'm not so sure that Rahy isn't coming through on a regular basis...hmmm...size-wise anyway. Body types that might be acceptable for the turf...but in my estimation...NOT for the dirt.
After I saw MANY of his second crop it became even clearer to me that he needed more (what I might refer to as) the powerhouse-type mare if he was to make it (at least to some degree) as a sire of dirt runners in North America. It was clear (to me anyway...and based on what I've seen) that he did not offer (except maybe on a rare occasion, that I've yet to see) much in the way of size...bone...substance...quarters...forearm...strong pasterns etc etc, on his own....and he needed help from his mares. If he was dominant in any category...it was that he consistently seemed to get lightweights...leaning toward fragile, and with pasterns to match...Ouch.
It appears that his Hopeful winner First Samurai may have been the result of breeding to an American-type (for lack of a better description) mare that offered everything physical that GC did not (or could not) offer. Consider this...First Samurai's dam is by arguably one of North America's premier (and still standing at stud) broodmare sires...Dixieland Band...and is out of a Fappiano (known to get powerhouse horses) that is out of a Reviewer (known for his very big...powerful offspring) that is out of a Graustark (Wow in my book). It appears to have worked...
...even on ESPN First Samurai was described as looking like a three or four year-old (when in the paddock for the Hopeful) with two-year-olds. Roving Boy seemed to confirm the thought when he wrote (Mon Aug 29, 2005 6:46 am) "WOW! When I saw First Samurai in the paddock Saturday he was a man among boys! Henny Hughes is a nice attractive horse, very much his father, but he did not have the maturity nor was he physically imposing as First Samurai was."
TBLADY...All Things Considered...I don't see GC as the kind of horse that can help most commercial breeders...even if they're willing to shell out $200k (plus tax of course). He's a horse that I might recommend a foal share with (if the right kind of mare was being considered). Even then...I cannot ignore the fact that with what might be considered the right kind of mares...I've seen GC get too many of the wrong kind of foals.
As you know...I suggest that if someone, anyone is sold on Giant's Causeway...I say go for it. But I find him to be unconvincing and generally a dangerous choice at US$200,000.
Best to you.
Respectfully