I bought the mare Charming Heiress by Gallant Prospector out of Super Lovely by Superbity. Looking at breeding her to Halory Hunter by Jade Hunter. Would give me a 3S X 3D Jadana and 3S X 3D Mr. Prospector plus some other good things. Question: Is this too close of a mating to Mr. Prospector? Knowing some of the bad traits attributed to Mr. P's, is this a 100% or 0% good/bad.
Dave
Breeding a Mare
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kimberley mine
- Breeder's Cup Contender
- Posts: 1811
- Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:43 pm
Congratulations on getting a nice sound mare!
At my first glance at her pedigree, Mr P and Jadana weren't what jumped out at me, but the tail-female to La Troienne and the strain of My Dear Girl without In Reality. That strain gives you the chance to linebreed to two separate blue hen mares without being too close on either one. Of the two strains of In Reality out there--Relaunch and Valid Appeal--I prefer Relaunch due to his strain of The Axe II. The Axe is tail-female to La Troienne through Big Event, and linebreeding to La T via The Axe has proven effective with your mare's female family through the stakes-winning full sisters Thinghatab and Tabayour.
The Relaunch/Seattle Slew cross has proven to be a big one. I like that this cross has been remarkably consistent across the generations--Relaunch over a Seattle Slew daughter produced the G2 winner Slew Gin Fizz; a son of Relaunch over a daughter of a son of Slew produced Tiznow and his siblings, and a son of AP Indy over a mare tail-female to Relaunch's full sister Moon Glitter produced G1-winner Tapit. Linebreeding to Myrtlewood between Mr P and Seattle Slew has also proven to be highly effective.
Moon Glitter presents some interesting possibilities herself, through her son Glitterman's descendants and her daughter Ruby Slipper's son Rubiano.
Based on the above ramblings, here are some of my recommendations.
SLEW GIN FIZZ. Relaunch over Seattle Slew, from the Myrtlewood family. First NA crops are just now 3. Has a G3-stakes placed gelding carrying a son strain of Lyphard. I wouldn't go to him if you are breeding to sell, but as a racing prospect he could be a good deal.
TIZBUD. Full to Tiznow. Ties in Lyphard, Relaunch, Seattle Slew. Right now he is in limbo, but see where he goes. Could be a good regional sire at the right price, if you allow his foals enough time to grow up. I wouldn't have recommended him except that you have a sound mare from a sound family.
WAQUOIT. A proven value in the mid-Atlantic who will get you a good runner.
BURNING ROMA. This cross would linebreed to Mr P through his atypical son Fappiano, and tie into In Reality and The Axe through Moon Glitter.
OFFICER. He is the most expensive of the bunch, and breeding to him next year would be on the bubble, but he was a good fast horse who probably could have gone on further with better management.
RUBIYAT. Another tie into Moon Glitter, still young, but getting winners. He is the lowest fee in the bunch at $1500 in Pennsylvania.
At my first glance at her pedigree, Mr P and Jadana weren't what jumped out at me, but the tail-female to La Troienne and the strain of My Dear Girl without In Reality. That strain gives you the chance to linebreed to two separate blue hen mares without being too close on either one. Of the two strains of In Reality out there--Relaunch and Valid Appeal--I prefer Relaunch due to his strain of The Axe II. The Axe is tail-female to La Troienne through Big Event, and linebreeding to La T via The Axe has proven effective with your mare's female family through the stakes-winning full sisters Thinghatab and Tabayour.
The Relaunch/Seattle Slew cross has proven to be a big one. I like that this cross has been remarkably consistent across the generations--Relaunch over a Seattle Slew daughter produced the G2 winner Slew Gin Fizz; a son of Relaunch over a daughter of a son of Slew produced Tiznow and his siblings, and a son of AP Indy over a mare tail-female to Relaunch's full sister Moon Glitter produced G1-winner Tapit. Linebreeding to Myrtlewood between Mr P and Seattle Slew has also proven to be highly effective.
Moon Glitter presents some interesting possibilities herself, through her son Glitterman's descendants and her daughter Ruby Slipper's son Rubiano.
Based on the above ramblings, here are some of my recommendations.
SLEW GIN FIZZ. Relaunch over Seattle Slew, from the Myrtlewood family. First NA crops are just now 3. Has a G3-stakes placed gelding carrying a son strain of Lyphard. I wouldn't go to him if you are breeding to sell, but as a racing prospect he could be a good deal.
TIZBUD. Full to Tiznow. Ties in Lyphard, Relaunch, Seattle Slew. Right now he is in limbo, but see where he goes. Could be a good regional sire at the right price, if you allow his foals enough time to grow up. I wouldn't have recommended him except that you have a sound mare from a sound family.
WAQUOIT. A proven value in the mid-Atlantic who will get you a good runner.
BURNING ROMA. This cross would linebreed to Mr P through his atypical son Fappiano, and tie into In Reality and The Axe through Moon Glitter.
OFFICER. He is the most expensive of the bunch, and breeding to him next year would be on the bubble, but he was a good fast horse who probably could have gone on further with better management.
RUBIYAT. Another tie into Moon Glitter, still young, but getting winners. He is the lowest fee in the bunch at $1500 in Pennsylvania.
Breeding a Mare
Kimberley mine,
You have some very good suggestions on breeding. I would have never looked at the mare except for the La troienne tail female sitting in the 6th generation. According to my Great Mares of the 20th Century, you can never have too much La T. Just as being very careful with In Reality's blood. This mare is a big, scopy, great bone and decent confirmation. I was wanting to look at a stud that will have a near perfect front allignment. I have always used out crossing in my previous breedings for the most part, but the linebreeding in this instance has some great potential. I have approached some stud farms to foal share, lease, or give a complimentary breeding to this mare. As of this time, nobody has returned an inquiry.
I will run the numbers on your stud suggestions. I want to thank you for your opinion. Keep In Touch!
Dave
You have some very good suggestions on breeding. I would have never looked at the mare except for the La troienne tail female sitting in the 6th generation. According to my Great Mares of the 20th Century, you can never have too much La T. Just as being very careful with In Reality's blood. This mare is a big, scopy, great bone and decent confirmation. I was wanting to look at a stud that will have a near perfect front allignment. I have always used out crossing in my previous breedings for the most part, but the linebreeding in this instance has some great potential. I have approached some stud farms to foal share, lease, or give a complimentary breeding to this mare. As of this time, nobody has returned an inquiry.
I will run the numbers on your stud suggestions. I want to thank you for your opinion. Keep In Touch!
Dave
-
kimberley mine
- Breeder's Cup Contender
- Posts: 1811
- Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:43 pm
I forgot to mention a couple:
BRIGHT LAUNCH, who stands in Kentucky for $5000. He is under the radar, but has been improving a book of very average mares (1.36 AEI vs. 1.01 CI).
HONOUR AND GLORY stands at Coolmore for $15,000. I personally think that he drags his mares down quite a bit, and with Waquoit, Bright Launch, and Slew Gin Fizz all standing for a third that price he is on the expensive side.
TEXAS GLITTER is a young sire at Signature Stallions in Florida. There is a thread in the Stallions board (I think) about him.
Three out in California (as I don't know where in the country you are): BERTRANDO, SPINELESSJELLYFISH, CEE'S TIZZY.
One more thought, on distance preferences. The Relaunch side prefers longer distances (With Anticipation, Skywalker, Gourmet Girl, Relasure, Tiznow, Bertrando), up to 10 furlongs or so, while the Moon Glitter side has been reliably turning out cracking sprinters (Glitterman, Texas Glitter, Rubiano, etc).
BRIGHT LAUNCH, who stands in Kentucky for $5000. He is under the radar, but has been improving a book of very average mares (1.36 AEI vs. 1.01 CI).
HONOUR AND GLORY stands at Coolmore for $15,000. I personally think that he drags his mares down quite a bit, and with Waquoit, Bright Launch, and Slew Gin Fizz all standing for a third that price he is on the expensive side.
TEXAS GLITTER is a young sire at Signature Stallions in Florida. There is a thread in the Stallions board (I think) about him.
Three out in California (as I don't know where in the country you are): BERTRANDO, SPINELESSJELLYFISH, CEE'S TIZZY.
One more thought, on distance preferences. The Relaunch side prefers longer distances (With Anticipation, Skywalker, Gourmet Girl, Relasure, Tiznow, Bertrando), up to 10 furlongs or so, while the Moon Glitter side has been reliably turning out cracking sprinters (Glitterman, Texas Glitter, Rubiano, etc).
Pembroke,
No, New Mexico is out for sure...I want that Relaunch breeding that has the Axe in it to get to La T again in the tail female side. That's the problem the horses that are real good for her are a bit far to send her to, and it's been dificult to get a good price for the fee, boarding, vaning,etc.
It will be coming together in the next two weeks. I want to breed for a late March or April foal. If you have any suggestions, I am open to ideas.
Dave
No, New Mexico is out for sure...I want that Relaunch breeding that has the Axe in it to get to La T again in the tail female side. That's the problem the horses that are real good for her are a bit far to send her to, and it's been dificult to get a good price for the fee, boarding, vaning,etc.
It will be coming together in the next two weeks. I want to breed for a late March or April foal. If you have any suggestions, I am open to ideas.
Dave
If you are looking for LA TROIENNE, You could also go the HOLY BULL route, or his son, freshman sire WOKE UP DREAMIN.
You get a double dose of LA TROIENNE thru THE AXE and ASPIDISTRA. Both stand in Lexington, HB @ Darley for $15,000, and WUD @ Millennium for $7,500. There are a few cheaper sons of HB in Pa and Il.
Regards
Colonel
You get a double dose of LA TROIENNE thru THE AXE and ASPIDISTRA. Both stand in Lexington, HB @ Darley for $15,000, and WUD @ Millennium for $7,500. There are a few cheaper sons of HB in Pa and Il.
Regards
Colonel
Colonel
Hi Dave,
To answer your question directly - YES it's too close to inbreed Mr. Prospector 3x3 top line (sire lines). Jadana 3x3 I'd not recommend either especially in light of the difficulties that are manifested in Jade Hunter breeding selections (mainly as a broodmare sire). It's possible that Gallant Prospector will and does breed quite independently from his brother but I see no reason to amplify the difficulty.
Regards,
Pete
To answer your question directly - YES it's too close to inbreed Mr. Prospector 3x3 top line (sire lines). Jadana 3x3 I'd not recommend either especially in light of the difficulties that are manifested in Jade Hunter breeding selections (mainly as a broodmare sire). It's possible that Gallant Prospector will and does breed quite independently from his brother but I see no reason to amplify the difficulty.
Regards,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
Hi Kimberley,
This is some of the best and most concise analysis I've read on this forum. You did your homework (most of it
Regards,
Pete
At my first glance at her pedigree, Mr P and Jadana weren't what jumped out at me, but the tail-female to La Troienne and the strain of My Dear Girl without In Reality. That strain gives you the chance to linebreed to two separate blue hen mares without being too close on either one. Of the two strains of In Reality out there--Relaunch and Valid Appeal--I prefer Relaunch due to his strain of The Axe II. The Axe is tail-female to La Troienne through Big Event, and linebreeding to La T via The Axe has proven effective with your mare's female family through the stakes-winning full sisters Thinghatab and Tabayour.
This is some of the best and most concise analysis I've read on this forum. You did your homework (most of it
Regards,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
Hi all,
Dave, you don't mention if the foal will be to race or sell, but from the price points you mention I don't see how you could have reasonable hope of having a commercial foal. I wouldn't do any foal shares on the fee level that you mention and I doubt that any will want to do them with you (not enough potential of return). That said, if you breed a well made foal from a hard runner like Heiress you may be able to sell the foal privately or get partners to get the foal to the races. As far as targeting a foal for March/April delivery (did you mention this?), I'd NOT try and fool with Mother Nature. Breed Heiress as early as you can can be thankful to have he in foal - whenever the foal is due.
Jade Hunter has strong affinities for Nijinsky, Bold Ruler and Hail To Reason. He shows several inherited affinities as well (Caerleon, Devil's Bag, etc.). If you look at the sires in the dams that he's been successful with most trace to these stallions (and Northern Dancer in general).
As a broodmare sire, Jade Hunter has been an something of an enigma.
Gallant Prospector has a smaller body of foals to study and only has a limited number of reasonable runners to study. Some daughters of the same influences (generally) as Jade Hunter have done well, but overall the mares that have winners with him have a more Euro based pedigree.
Kimberley's comments hint at a pattern in Charming Heiress' female family, all of the quality runners have sires with strong female lines. From the successful (relatively) foals of Gallant Prospector there are several with Relic and My Dear Girl even independently of each other.
Unstated in Kimberley's analysis is that Rubiano also brings in Nijinsky whose blood has been successful with Jade Hunter and in the only case with Gallant Prospector produced a viable runner through a Baldski mare.
That said, I think Rubiano is fine if willing to inbreed to Mr. Prospector top line and I wouldn't suggest that.
This strain of La Troienne's female family has been one of the less productive through Baby League. La Troienne is a reclaimable line but I'd look to her blood through other sources than Baby League.
I would add to Kimberley's analysis by making the following points. Look for stallions with Northern Dancer, Bold Ruler and Ribot. Generally I'd want the blood to be less aggressive and potentially transitioned Euro (with some proof that they or their foals can run on dirt).
Some of the stallions you folks mentioned are interesting and I think it would be a good practice to put them up with Charming Heiress in hypo matings. I smiled at Captain Countdown (not enough female family to reclaim Heiress' family) and Morluc (more family).
I'll make a couple of stallion suggestions based on where you are and what you're saying Dave.
Harry The Hat. I don't really like this stallion because few of his horses actually race but that may in part be that they end up as showhorses. His fee is low, $1,000 and he has no commercial appeal but he's gotten some useful winners (thus his AEI is higher than his CI). His best son, Prince Joseph (2001) is a SW from Heiress' family. Harry's comes from the female family of La Troienne (through Big Hurry - not Baby League) and he has some excellent blood in his pedigree. On a content basis (the blood in the pedigree) he answers many of the affinities.
Raffie's Majesty. Solid sire of winners. He's Ribot line that has been successful as compoent blood with Jade Hunter and Gallant Prospector. His female family is good and his dam blood all Euro. Physically he's well conformed as sires from German female lines tend to be. A little more expensive, not commercial but the blood content that I believe would be a good match.
In Ohio:
Pacific Waves. I agree with Kimberley that Seattle Slew (through less aggressive sons) makes sense. This stallion has a deceptively deep family and is getting solid winners from limited foals. His fee is also $1,000. His dam sire is Alleged and his second dam, Olmec, was an outstanding producer and is by Pago Pago (through to Fairway - an excellent Euro source of Phalaris).
Some good responses made this an interesting thread and I hope it helps Dave.
Rwgards,
Pete
Dave, you don't mention if the foal will be to race or sell, but from the price points you mention I don't see how you could have reasonable hope of having a commercial foal. I wouldn't do any foal shares on the fee level that you mention and I doubt that any will want to do them with you (not enough potential of return). That said, if you breed a well made foal from a hard runner like Heiress you may be able to sell the foal privately or get partners to get the foal to the races. As far as targeting a foal for March/April delivery (did you mention this?), I'd NOT try and fool with Mother Nature. Breed Heiress as early as you can can be thankful to have he in foal - whenever the foal is due.
Jade Hunter has strong affinities for Nijinsky, Bold Ruler and Hail To Reason. He shows several inherited affinities as well (Caerleon, Devil's Bag, etc.). If you look at the sires in the dams that he's been successful with most trace to these stallions (and Northern Dancer in general).
As a broodmare sire, Jade Hunter has been an something of an enigma.
Gallant Prospector has a smaller body of foals to study and only has a limited number of reasonable runners to study. Some daughters of the same influences (generally) as Jade Hunter have done well, but overall the mares that have winners with him have a more Euro based pedigree.
Kimberley's comments hint at a pattern in Charming Heiress' female family, all of the quality runners have sires with strong female lines. From the successful (relatively) foals of Gallant Prospector there are several with Relic and My Dear Girl even independently of each other.
Unstated in Kimberley's analysis is that Rubiano also brings in Nijinsky whose blood has been successful with Jade Hunter and in the only case with Gallant Prospector produced a viable runner through a Baldski mare.
That said, I think Rubiano is fine if willing to inbreed to Mr. Prospector top line and I wouldn't suggest that.
This strain of La Troienne's female family has been one of the less productive through Baby League. La Troienne is a reclaimable line but I'd look to her blood through other sources than Baby League.
I would add to Kimberley's analysis by making the following points. Look for stallions with Northern Dancer, Bold Ruler and Ribot. Generally I'd want the blood to be less aggressive and potentially transitioned Euro (with some proof that they or their foals can run on dirt).
Some of the stallions you folks mentioned are interesting and I think it would be a good practice to put them up with Charming Heiress in hypo matings. I smiled at Captain Countdown (not enough female family to reclaim Heiress' family) and Morluc (more family).
I'll make a couple of stallion suggestions based on where you are and what you're saying Dave.
Harry The Hat. I don't really like this stallion because few of his horses actually race but that may in part be that they end up as showhorses. His fee is low, $1,000 and he has no commercial appeal but he's gotten some useful winners (thus his AEI is higher than his CI). His best son, Prince Joseph (2001) is a SW from Heiress' family. Harry's comes from the female family of La Troienne (through Big Hurry - not Baby League) and he has some excellent blood in his pedigree. On a content basis (the blood in the pedigree) he answers many of the affinities.
Raffie's Majesty. Solid sire of winners. He's Ribot line that has been successful as compoent blood with Jade Hunter and Gallant Prospector. His female family is good and his dam blood all Euro. Physically he's well conformed as sires from German female lines tend to be. A little more expensive, not commercial but the blood content that I believe would be a good match.
In Ohio:
Pacific Waves. I agree with Kimberley that Seattle Slew (through less aggressive sons) makes sense. This stallion has a deceptively deep family and is getting solid winners from limited foals. His fee is also $1,000. His dam sire is Alleged and his second dam, Olmec, was an outstanding producer and is by Pago Pago (through to Fairway - an excellent Euro source of Phalaris).
Some good responses made this an interesting thread and I hope it helps Dave.
Rwgards,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms