I was flipping through some pictures of him I took at the Breeder's Cup and I noticed he has very upright pasterns. I thought, well maybe the pictures are just bad (I am no professional photographer).
I looked him up in other online photos, and he does appear to be terribly upright in his pasterns.
Mostly I am curious what people think of him as a stallion prospect, with those pasterns and all. Thanks.
Saint Liam
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parsixfarms
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George William Smith
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Saint Liam
Saint Ballado, not a sire of sires...what have you been smoking? And he died at 13....and a smacking 119 foals in his first three crops with mares that only had a CI of 1.52....
Do you have any clue how hard it is for a stallion to get one as good as he was, let alone a son as good as he is...so he can be known as a sire of sires....Yikes.
I apologize if I sound a little hard, but this business is so full of expert sounding people that I want to scream when I realize how many people who know nothing about breeding breed horses from mumbo jumbo.
I am definitely not speaking of you! I know nothing about you. I am speaking generically in this business and I have been in it a long time.
I would not have gone ballistic if you had stated, I don't believe he is going to be a sire of sires....and then give your reasons....died too young, too few foals, none as good as himself....everybody is entitled to an opinion and then facts can be laid on the table and discussed. This is a great forum to do it.
Do you have any clue how hard it is for a stallion to get one as good as he was, let alone a son as good as he is...so he can be known as a sire of sires....Yikes.
I apologize if I sound a little hard, but this business is so full of expert sounding people that I want to scream when I realize how many people who know nothing about breeding breed horses from mumbo jumbo.
I am definitely not speaking of you! I know nothing about you. I am speaking generically in this business and I have been in it a long time.
I would not have gone ballistic if you had stated, I don't believe he is going to be a sire of sires....and then give your reasons....died too young, too few foals, none as good as himself....everybody is entitled to an opinion and then facts can be laid on the table and discussed. This is a great forum to do it.
Hi George,
There's a perception about Saint Ballado that's probably based on the 'failure' of Captain Bodgit and the fact that Devil's Bag wasn't a strong sire of sires.
Your point about jumping to conclusions in this business is well taken.
The history of the Turn-To line is that they'll surprise you if you under estimate them. A powerful line it is even if it doesn't have the high commercial profile (across the board) that Mr. Prospector and Northern Dancer's lines have.
Regards,
Pete
There's a perception about Saint Ballado that's probably based on the 'failure' of Captain Bodgit and the fact that Devil's Bag wasn't a strong sire of sires.
Your point about jumping to conclusions in this business is well taken.
The history of the Turn-To line is that they'll surprise you if you under estimate them. A powerful line it is even if it doesn't have the high commercial profile (across the board) that Mr. Prospector and Northern Dancer's lines have.
Regards,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
parsixfarms wrote:Conformation aside, I would be very leery of breeding to any stallion who comes from a sire (Saint Ballado) not exactly known as a sire of sires and who was really only a modest racehorse prior to his 2004 trainer change, let alone one standing for $50,000.
I agree. Saint Ballado, while an outstanding sire himself shows little sign of being a sire-of-sires. Yankee Victor was promoted hard and heavy but is not really distinguishing himself overall though Real Dandy is a nice horse.
Personally, I wouldn't breed to Saint Liam for $10,000 let alone $50,000. He was a nice horse prior to a trainer change and then became a borderline super horse. Nothing wrong with that but if he was a truly natuarally talented horse we would have seen a bit more of that before the trainer change, IMO.
If I had to breed to a son of Saint Ballado I would go to Sweetsouthernsaint who stands for $3,500 in Florida.
Horsenuts writes:
Personally, I wouldn't breed to Saint Liam for $10,000 let alone $50,000. He was a nice horse prior to a trainer change and then became a borderline super horse. Nothing wrong with that but if he was a truly natuarally talented horse we would have seen a bit more of that before the trainer change, IMO.
Like Cigar?
Personally, I wouldn't breed to Saint Liam for $10,000 let alone $50,000. He was a nice horse prior to a trainer change and then became a borderline super horse. Nothing wrong with that but if he was a truly natuarally talented horse we would have seen a bit more of that before the trainer change, IMO.
Like Cigar?
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parsixfarms
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George, what I said - and certainly meant - is that, right now, Saint Ballado is "not exactly known as a sire of sires." Quite honestly, I don't think that statement is particularly controversial. He may someday become a sire of sires, but the evidence is not there yet that he is ready to join the ranks of those sires known for producing stallions. Stated another way, they're asking $50,000 for a season to a stallion who was not sired by an Unbridled, Mr. Prospector, Storm Cat or some other sire known as a sire of sires.
Putting aside Saint Ballado's early death or limited number of foals, his sons that have gone to stud have not exactly distinguished themselves. Yankee Victor was a favorite of mine on the race track and, despite being heavily promoted and producing offspring that initially sold well at the sales, Airdrie sold him to Korean interests. His next best horse, Captain Bodgit, went from Kentucky to New York to Canada, where he now stands for a mere $3,500. And Saint Ballado's other prominent sons at stud (Flame Thrower, Straight Man, and Sweetsouthernsaint) have not done enough to suggest $50,000 is a reasonable price for Saint Liam, IMHO. If I'm missing something, please let me know.
FYI, I neither smoke nor inhale. And I don't profess to be an expert, simply a fan and participant in the game who's here for an honest exchange of thoughts and opinions.
Putting aside Saint Ballado's early death or limited number of foals, his sons that have gone to stud have not exactly distinguished themselves. Yankee Victor was a favorite of mine on the race track and, despite being heavily promoted and producing offspring that initially sold well at the sales, Airdrie sold him to Korean interests. His next best horse, Captain Bodgit, went from Kentucky to New York to Canada, where he now stands for a mere $3,500. And Saint Ballado's other prominent sons at stud (Flame Thrower, Straight Man, and Sweetsouthernsaint) have not done enough to suggest $50,000 is a reasonable price for Saint Liam, IMHO. If I'm missing something, please let me know.
FYI, I neither smoke nor inhale. And I don't profess to be an expert, simply a fan and participant in the game who's here for an honest exchange of thoughts and opinions.
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parsixfarms
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George, what I said - and certainly meant - is that, right now, Saint Ballado is "not exactly known as a sire of sires." Quite honestly, I don't think that statement is particularly controversial. He may someday become a sire of sires, but the evidence is not there yet that he is ready to join the ranks of those sires known for producing stallions. Stated another way, they're asking $50,000 for a season to a stallion who was not sired by an Unbridled, Mr. Prospector, Storm Cat or some other sire known as a sire of sires.
Putting aside Saint Ballado's early death or limited number of foals, his sons that have gone to stud have not exactly distinguished themselves. Yankee Victor was a favorite of mine on the race track and, despite being heavily promoted and producing offspring that initially sold well at the sales, Airdrie sold him to Korean interests. His next best horse, Captain Bodgit, went from Kentucky to New York to Canada, where he now stands for a mere $3,500. And Saint Ballado's other prominent sons at stud (Flame Thrower, Straight Man, and Sweetsouthernsaint) have not done enough to suggest $50,000 is a reasonable price for Saint Liam, IMHO. If I'm missing something, please let me know.
FYI, I neither smoke nor inhale. And I don't profess to be an expert, simply a fan and participant in the game who's here for an honest exchange of thoughts and opinions.
Putting aside Saint Ballado's early death or limited number of foals, his sons that have gone to stud have not exactly distinguished themselves. Yankee Victor was a favorite of mine on the race track and, despite being heavily promoted and producing offspring that initially sold well at the sales, Airdrie sold him to Korean interests. His next best horse, Captain Bodgit, went from Kentucky to New York to Canada, where he now stands for a mere $3,500. And Saint Ballado's other prominent sons at stud (Flame Thrower, Straight Man, and Sweetsouthernsaint) have not done enough to suggest $50,000 is a reasonable price for Saint Liam, IMHO. If I'm missing something, please let me know.
FYI, I neither smoke nor inhale. And I don't profess to be an expert, simply a fan and participant in the game who's here for an honest exchange of thoughts and opinions.
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sunday_silence
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I guess if they can get people to pay $50K the first 2 or 3 seasons simply off the high from his likely HOY racing season, if they have to lower it a bit after that, they've still made a better profit. If attitude and personality mean anything, St. L had got that in abundance. He's clearly very smart and quite aware that he's a star. His pasterns are definitely upright, but he retired sound a looks like $1,000,000. He's a pretty mover, too. All that has to count for something. A lot of people have been buzzing about a big resurgence of the Hail to Reason line. Maybe it'll be through him. Maybe not. But he sure has a lot of quality about him.
The combination of racing class and pedigree in Saint Ballado is quite impressive to me...
Remember that he ran with Ghostzapper and overcame a really bad trip to win the BC Classic...
Also, Quiet American over Lyphard in the dam with the sire being one of the best sons of Halo is very good (perhaps the damline could be a little stronger, though).
The dam was a G2P SW of $200,000+ and 6 wins though.
-Michael
Remember that he ran with Ghostzapper and overcame a really bad trip to win the BC Classic...
Also, Quiet American over Lyphard in the dam with the sire being one of the best sons of Halo is very good (perhaps the damline could be a little stronger, though).
The dam was a G2P SW of $200,000+ and 6 wins though.
-Michael
hi guys...hello parsixfarms...hello George William Smith
Sounds like this thread could be full of minefields. Regardless...here goes...and I preface my comments by saying that I have not yet seen (with my own eyes) Saint Liam in the flesh.
For starters...at this time I find little to argue with parsixfarms general evaluation of Saint Ballado as a sire-of-sires (so far)...or George William Smith's reference as to how good Saint Ballado was; and that Saint Liam was a rare race horse, like few sires ever get, and that we should wait and see before mistakenly being overly critical or possibly even writing him off prematurely (Did I understand that correctly George?).
Well, re: Saint Liam's chances for success, I expect he'll be offered a significant book of very nice (or better) mares as a result of his racing accomplishments.
That said...many that I know and trust, that had initially indicated that they would use or might consider using Saint Liam's services...have decided otherwise immediately after seeing him with their own eyes. Light boned and upright are the two most critical comments I am consistently hearing. Regardless...some are still considering using him if their intention is to sell the mare in foal. Not exactly a rave review...as far as I'm concerned.
Needless to say...Saint Liam was a VERY good racehorse. Certainly he is worthy of high marks in that category and arguably the reason why he'll attract initial attention. But now he embarks on his new career...and now the focus is on what he might be as a sire...not only of racehorses but also of sales horses.
I'll withhold more critical opinion until I see Saint Liam in the flesh...but I must say that I have NOT heard even one positive independent critical review (relating to SL's physical structure) from a commercial breeder (or any horseman or woman for that matter) with a proven track record for success (that is not in some way connected to the horse)...hmmm.
Re: Saint Ballado's chances for significant success as a sire-of-sires...I offer that from my perspective he has not YET sired (with the possible exception of Sweetsouthernsaint who has arguably [all things considered] at least shown signs) a son at stud that has proven to be worth his salt.
And even though I suggest that Sweetsouthernsaint is showing signs...I also suggest that he is getting a reputation (which I've heard many reference) for siring ugly ones...yes ugly. Certainly that won't affect his ability to get runners...but arguably it will not help in the sales arena.
For what it's worth, I suggest that any thoroughbred stallion (even a teaser with appropriate JC papers) could possibly sire a good one...
...that said, as far as Saint Ballado is concerned, I expect it is probably reasonable to say that there is still HOPE that he'll come up with a good one (or more) son(s) that will achieve genuine success in the stallion ranks. But it's probably also fair to say...don't hold your breath.
Saint Ballado has had a number of sons that have been offered SIGNIFICANT opportunity at stud. With that in mind I ask...why is it not reasonable to suggest that he has not (at the very least) been disappointing so far? And why should a horse (Saint Liam) that has been described by numerous credible and knowledgeable horsemen and women as light boned and upright, be expected to be particularly or especially successful...unless of course the mares he is bred to are expectd to push him over the top.
Unless his mares make it happen...and/or he is NOT as lightboned and upright as I have been led to believe...I would not recommend Saint Liam as an odds-on bet...with the possible exception of selling a mare in foal to him.
The caveat there is that by sales time...Saint Liam's weakness(es), whether real or perceived, might become accepted fact...if so, even mares in foal to him might suffer some consequences.
Respectfully
Sounds like this thread could be full of minefields. Regardless...here goes...and I preface my comments by saying that I have not yet seen (with my own eyes) Saint Liam in the flesh.
For starters...at this time I find little to argue with parsixfarms general evaluation of Saint Ballado as a sire-of-sires (so far)...or George William Smith's reference as to how good Saint Ballado was; and that Saint Liam was a rare race horse, like few sires ever get, and that we should wait and see before mistakenly being overly critical or possibly even writing him off prematurely (Did I understand that correctly George?).
Well, re: Saint Liam's chances for success, I expect he'll be offered a significant book of very nice (or better) mares as a result of his racing accomplishments.
That said...many that I know and trust, that had initially indicated that they would use or might consider using Saint Liam's services...have decided otherwise immediately after seeing him with their own eyes. Light boned and upright are the two most critical comments I am consistently hearing. Regardless...some are still considering using him if their intention is to sell the mare in foal. Not exactly a rave review...as far as I'm concerned.
Needless to say...Saint Liam was a VERY good racehorse. Certainly he is worthy of high marks in that category and arguably the reason why he'll attract initial attention. But now he embarks on his new career...and now the focus is on what he might be as a sire...not only of racehorses but also of sales horses.
I'll withhold more critical opinion until I see Saint Liam in the flesh...but I must say that I have NOT heard even one positive independent critical review (relating to SL's physical structure) from a commercial breeder (or any horseman or woman for that matter) with a proven track record for success (that is not in some way connected to the horse)...hmmm.
Re: Saint Ballado's chances for significant success as a sire-of-sires...I offer that from my perspective he has not YET sired (with the possible exception of Sweetsouthernsaint who has arguably [all things considered] at least shown signs) a son at stud that has proven to be worth his salt.
And even though I suggest that Sweetsouthernsaint is showing signs...I also suggest that he is getting a reputation (which I've heard many reference) for siring ugly ones...yes ugly. Certainly that won't affect his ability to get runners...but arguably it will not help in the sales arena.
For what it's worth, I suggest that any thoroughbred stallion (even a teaser with appropriate JC papers) could possibly sire a good one...
...that said, as far as Saint Ballado is concerned, I expect it is probably reasonable to say that there is still HOPE that he'll come up with a good one (or more) son(s) that will achieve genuine success in the stallion ranks. But it's probably also fair to say...don't hold your breath.
Saint Ballado has had a number of sons that have been offered SIGNIFICANT opportunity at stud. With that in mind I ask...why is it not reasonable to suggest that he has not (at the very least) been disappointing so far? And why should a horse (Saint Liam) that has been described by numerous credible and knowledgeable horsemen and women as light boned and upright, be expected to be particularly or especially successful...unless of course the mares he is bred to are expectd to push him over the top.
Unless his mares make it happen...and/or he is NOT as lightboned and upright as I have been led to believe...I would not recommend Saint Liam as an odds-on bet...with the possible exception of selling a mare in foal to him.
The caveat there is that by sales time...Saint Liam's weakness(es), whether real or perceived, might become accepted fact...if so, even mares in foal to him might suffer some consequences.
Respectfully
I've read a lot at numerous places that he's light boned. Is it possible though with the right kind of mares it might not be a problem? And he was able to race through his 5 year old season, so it wasn't an issue with him.
As far as the light boned and a comparison, would Orientate be considered light boned? http://www.stallionregister.com/sr_sire ... nglesearch I would think so, and from the yearlings that I've seen they seem it too.
As far as the light boned and a comparison, would Orientate be considered light boned? http://www.stallionregister.com/sr_sire ... nglesearch I would think so, and from the yearlings that I've seen they seem it too.
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sunday_silence
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