Full Brothers

[ragsdaj]

ask a question with a hundred answers, but what is the general consensus regarding a stud who is less than stellar on the track but has a sibling that was dynamite?

lets assume the pedigree is a good match for the mare and conformation is not an issue. More interested in genetics and the studs potential to produce a runner.

I am not interested in this particular horse but new stud in FL named Great Pyramid won 27K on the track but is full brother to Rock of Gibraltar is an example of what I'm talking about.

[fastappy]

There are exceptions (e.g. Vice Regent / Vice Regal), but unless the full brother with the lesser track performance has legitimate excuse (injury/illness) and demonstrated real racing ability during an abreviated career, it would be wise to seek more successful stallions.

Let someone else prove the stallions worth, you will have ample opportunity to jump on the bandwagon if he shows he can get runners. I would not have the same stance on an unproven, well bred stallion with an outstanding race record because in that case they have demonstrated racing ability and would be more commercially viable.

It is tempting to many to go with the full brother scenario because of the genetic potential and seemingly inexpensive proposition. Frued (Giant's Causeway) for example, got 133 mares in N.Y. and has an advertised fee of 10K. The jury is still out, 88 foals of racing age, 9 winners from 21 starters, $381K,
AEI 1.07 vs 1.41, $20,798 per starter (lifetime as of 01/30/06). My advice is, avoid the temptation, hedge you chances if your going to an unproven stallion by going with one with real demonstrated racing ability.

[FOS]

hi ragsdaj

You wrote "...what is the general consensus regarding a stud who is less than stellar on the track but has a sibling that was dynamite?

lets assume the pedigree is a good match for the mare and conformation is not an issue. More interested in genetics and the studs potential to produce a runner.

I am not interested in this particular horse but new stud in FL named Great Pyramid won 27K on the track but is full brother to Rock of Gibraltar is an example of what I'm talking about."

Ragsdaj...do you mean "less than stellar" (your words) or less stellar than? Arguably, Great Pyramid was less than stellar, whereas Unforgettable Max was less stellar than his brother Afleet Alex.

I suggest that each case must be evaluated on its own merits. That said, let's consider those two examples of full brothers entering stud.

Example #1: Great Pyramid v Rock of Gibralter

As for Great Pyramid v Rock of Gibralter...I expect that GP will have very little (if any) market appeal whatsoever...UNLESS and until he proves himself as a racehorse sire.

I would expect that using the services of Great Pyramid (right now) might ultimately get you a runner, but if the auction is your intended destination, I suggest don't set your hopes too high.

Example #2: Unforgettable Max v Afleet Alex

I would expect that Unforgettable Max (full-brother to champion 3-yo colt Afleet Alex) will be offered a good opportunity and might actually have some market appeal. UM has some credentials of note himself. For starters he is a stakes-winner, graded stakes-placed and seems to be (at the very least) reasonably well promoted...and the buzz surrounding him seems to be good...arguably a very valuable ingredient.

Furthermore, Unforgettable Max sold (at auction) much better than his brother Alex did (and it's important to not that Max sold prior to Alex), which leads me to believe that comments indicating that UM is hands down a better looking horse than his brother, could potentially be an indicator of things to come.

Respectfully

[ragsdaj]

appreciate well thought responses. I was considering a purchase of a full brother with less than stellar performace for my own personal use, but to put it in wallstreet terms, the risk is high and the returns are low.

Thanks.

[Denise]

Another good example to analyze might be Mineshaft and his full brother Rock Slide, who was an okay racehorse, but stands for considerably less $$. He's a nice looking individual though, and a good value for the mid-Atlantic breeders who can't afford to send mares to KY to see his brother.
It really depends on if you're breeding to sell, (runner or stallion prospect, usually both) or just to race.
Another illustration would be Unbridled's Song versus his unraced full brother, Spanish Steps. Same gene pool, but given the soundness issues US faced, you have to wonder what went wrong with SS to never have raced? Why, if you were trying to get a runner, would you want to pass that along, irrespective of the ROI you'd likely lose with a US, versus an SS?
Alex and Max had unremarkable breeding (by today's standards for stallions), yet both were very game runners. Alex was just a freak and those don't come around often.
Breeding is such a crapshoot anyway. As Penny Chenery said, Secretariat had a full sister who couldn't beat a fat man going downhill.

[elviswastheking]

Texas may have a couple of sleepers to look at. New Trieste is up at Turf Express in Collinsville and Littleexpectations is at Q6 in Salado. They are asking $1,500 LF on New Trieste and $3,500 LF for Littleexpectations. Of course I am sure that you can talk around these fees if you have those kinds of skills.

Good ol' time will tell whether these could be profitable producer full brothers of damn good stallions, but it is an interesting study to start tracking.

[Monmouth Matt]

denise... I'm very interested in seeing the Rock Slide offspring. He was a tough horse who may be a very solid Mid-Atlantic sire. I think he has nice upside. We'll see.

[powerscourt]

For what it's worth, Great Pyramid was useless on the racecourse. (As was another full brother to them both; Rock of Cashel). But that didn't stop Sadler's Wells brother Fairy King becoming a top class sire.

Giant's Causeway has a few brothers at stud in the US, none of whom were any great shakes on the racecourse: Freud, Tumblebrutus & Roar of the Tiger.

[Sheikh]

From memory Fairy King showed ability but got injured early.

[Denise]

There's a Freud 2yo. at our trainer's farm. He's a sharp looking fella, and I know they like him a lot.
Just shows to go you, the DNA can rearrange itself dramatically.

[Sheikh]

What was that Tesio said about a stallion giving his mare the ability to reproduce herself in many different ways or words to that affect, I don't buy the full bro thing, unless the individual was useful himself you might aswell be breeding to Mr Ed.

[Ryeno]

Whats wrong with Mr. Ed?Maybe he would pass on the yakaloto gene,