Same Tail Female Line.................Good or Not?

[elviswastheking]

What are the thoughts on a breeding that has almost the same tail female line?

In particular Grand Jewel/Scandalize?

[mikec]

I suppose my initial reaction would be that it's not really bringing anything new to the table. I myself am still learning all the nuances, so don't profess any great knowledge, but I think I might try to improve upon what's already there rather than duplicating history.
Just my opinion...Could be wrong !

[elviswastheking]

The thing about Grand Jewel that struck me as interesting was the tail female line. Scandalize traces tail female to Rough Shod, dam of Thong, Lt. Stevens, Ridan, Moccasin, and Gambetta. The same is true for Grand Jewel, as his dam is the 1/2 sister to Scandalize's dam.

I do not know if this would be a good thing or not, but it certainly would result in a foal with a ton of blood from this female family, 5-H.

[mikec]

Yep ; I certainly see where you're going with this. Going back, all the way back, to Rough Shod is fine but I think it might be a case of what have you done for me lately. What I mean by that is have there been any graded stakes winners from the most recent members of that tail female? I'm not all all that familiar with it but if there haven't been any you may want to look elsewhere rather than doubling up.
Your question is interesting though so I'd appreciate hearing what others might think. I had given some thought to breeding my mare to a stallion who shares the same Grand Dam so...gotta love this stuff ! In my case it would have been Wando/Carly Pooh but I backed away.

[Rick]

I think breeding back to Rough Shod would be a good idea although I wouldn't use Grand Jewel. In Texas, I would consider Marked Tree. If you don't mind going to Louisiana, consider Zarbyev(if he is still at stud) or K One King.

[BJ]

I suppose my initial reaction would be that it's not really bringing anything new to the table. I myself am still learning all the nuances, so don't profess any great knowledge, but I think I might try to improve upon what's already there rather than duplicating history.
Just my opinion...Could be wrong !

So, are you saying that if you have a mare tail-female to the 1-x family to La Troienne thu Black Helen (6th dam) and a stud tail-female to the 1-x family to LaTroienne thru Intriguing (3rd dam) Glamour (4th Dam), Striking (5th Dam) and Baby League (6th Dam), THAT such a mating would not be a PLUS to the equasion, if all other was a super plus as well?

[mikec]

No ; not at all. The point I was trying to make was I think you need to look at recent history...any precedent. I personally would never exactly duplicate an entire tail female line, top & bottom, but that's just my opinion. You could just as easily carry forward all the negative traits as you could anything positive. Of course that goes with any inbreeding but an entire line... Just too risky for my taste.

[Elusive City]

No ; not at all. The point I was trying to make was I think you need to look at recent history...any precedent. I personally would never exactly duplicate an entire tail female line, top & bottom, but that's just my opinion. You could just as easily carry forward all the negative traits as you could anything positive. Of course that goes with any inbreeding but an entire line... Just too risky for my taste.

well 3 of our 4 foals will be bred on the same tail female line

2003-Elusive Quality X Itbaya
2004-Anees X Itbaya
2005-Sky Classic X Itbaya
2006-Rossini X Itbaya

Only the sky classic colt is not female line bred (still an RF of course Flaming Page 3 x 5)

and this year mating is proud Citizen (Natalma 5 x 5)

risky maybe, but you pays you money and ya takes your chances.

Our 3 year old gelding (white Socks rock) is training for his debut at Hawthorne in March, so as they say the proof is in the runner.

[BJ]

No ; not at all. The point I was trying to make was I think you need to look at recent history...any precedent. I personally would never exactly duplicate an entire tail female line, top & bottom, but that's just my opinion. You could just as easily carry forward all the negative traits as you could anything positive. Of course that goes with any inbreeding but an entire line... Just too risky for my taste.

Hi Mikec,

I'm reading a book (two actually...I'm A.D.D. , Racehorse Breeding Theories, by Frank Mitchell, Ph.D., and Tesio, In His Own Words (by Tesio)

A quote from the first book, on inbreeding to tail female lines says:

"The actual practice of female family inbreeding far preceded its documentation as a suggested or preferred method of mating.

Since the onset of the breed, whether deliberate or not, inbreeding to great broodmares and their immediate families has been apparent in a remarkable proportion of the breed's finest runners, sires and dams...One would, indeed, find it difficult to review the accomplishments of very many of history's top breeders and not find a significant degree of FFI (Female Family Inbreeding) in evidence." p.238

Thought you might find it interesting.

[mikec]

Well ; here's the shame of it all ! I bought that Tesio book last fall but haven't had time to sit down & read it yet...not enough hours in a day.
I plan to get that done very soon though & I may have to change my position once I've become more edumacated. We'll see !

[BJ]

Well ; here's the shame of it all ! I bought that Tesio book last fall but haven't had time to sit down & read it yet...not enough hours in a day.
I plan to get that done very soon though & I may have to change my position once I've become more edumacated. We'll see !

Start taking the book with you, everywhere you go. You'd be surprised how many minutes you can steal to read, while waiting for someone. Of course, once you start doing that, Murphey's Law kicks in, and you will be first in line for everything.

Seriously...always make time for that which you love and that which makes you more edumacated in that which you love Cuz ya know...that touch down will happen whether you are watching or not...really...no lie!

[mikec]

I'm so seriously backed up on my reading it's pathetic. Wife going into the hospital over Xmas holiday didn't help but, that aside, I bought about a half dozen books, not all equine related, that I should have completed by now.
Don't remember if I had mentioned it before or not but at one point I was toying with the notion of mating my mare with Wando. That's why I found this tail female thing worth discussing. What do you think of a carly pooh / wando breeding with all that Vice Regent, Vice Regal & Victoria Regina duplication ? Just curious as to how your analysis stacks up vs. the " professionals " I retained.
Ya gotta love this stuff !

[BJ]

I'm so seriously backed up on my reading it's pathetic. Wife going into the hospital over Xmas holiday didn't help but, that aside, I bought about a half dozen books, not all equine related, that I should have completed by now.
Don't remember if I had mentioned it before or not but at one point I was toying with the notion of mating my mare with Wando. That's why I found this tail female thing worth discussing. What do you think of a carly pooh / wando breeding with all that Vice Regent, Vice Regal & Victoria Regina duplication ? Just curious as to how your analysis stacks up vs. the " professionals " I retained. :?:
Ya gotta love this stuff !

Ouch... in this case, that's a lot of Northern Dancer and Raise A Native. If it was just the tail female lines you were doubling up on, that would be one thing. I would also prefer the tail-female inbreeding to be the tail female of the sire and the dam. (Just my personal preferences and the way I've seen it in the horses I've been impressed with.) Your mare and Wando would be tail female of the dam sire with the sire. Also, I would only want to duplicate tail female lines if there was no inbreeding in the first 4 (preferrably first 5) generations and the rest of the surrounding lines were real solid, stand-alone additions. So, I concur with your thinking (in your earlier post) that it wouldn't add anything and focus needs to be on the individual offerings of the mare and stallion (as well as the second generation to be sure there is nothing to overcome there).

Per these books, inbreeding is only good when everything else is good and the inbreeding has a good chance of magnifiying what is already there, to bring it to the next level. Or, at least, that is what I am getting so far.

I wouldn't do anything, at this point with your mare, but to totally outcross (if possible) her with a stallion that was a superb graded performer on the track, that was compatible with her soundness and conformation, and that had everything you would want in a foal, without any more Northern Dancer or Raise A Native...PERIOD. (Is that even possible these days?)

It is *interesting*, that with all that inbreeding she was the best of her siblings AND seemed to be a sound one too, w/ a 54-11-4-7 record and $159,845 in winnings. I love that your mare could sprint, route and win on turf. Gives you so much to work with, IMO.

Not sure if you posted where you live, but Wando stands in Kentucky, so I'm assuming you are in Kentucky. Just from the few I could see that weren't front loaded with ND and Mr. P/RAN, Taste of Paradise and Harlan's Holiday look *interesting*, with the added Bold Ruler. Taste of Paradise is new at stud, but he made 28 starts (indicating some soundness). He made over $1Mil, and ran 2nd in BC Sprint. It probably is worth mentioning that he beat Our New Recruit in his Maiden win.

All the other KY studs w/Bold Ruler have too much of the ND and Mr. P/RAN for your mare, IMO. Otherwise, and maybe someone else suggested it here, I'd look at Siphon, in PA.

Best of luck, in whatever you decide. Let us know what you decide. This will be an interesting one to follow.

P V STALLION SIRE FARM LOCATION FEE ENTERED
STUD
A.P. Indy Seattle Slew Lane's End KY $300,000 1993

Canadian Frontier Gone West Airdrie Stud KY $7,500 2005

Forestry Storm Cat Taylor Made Farm KY $100,000 2000

Giant's Causeway Storm Cat Ashford Stud KY $300,000 2001

Golden Missile A.P. Indy Adena Springs Kentucky KY $25,000 2001

Grand Slam Gone West Ashford Stud KY $50,000 1999

Harlan's Holiday Harlan Airdrie Stud KY $17,500 2004

Hold That Tiger Storm Cat Ashford Stud KY $12,500 2004

Jump Start A.P. Indy Overbrook Farm KY $10,000 2003

Minardi Boundary Walmac Farm, LLC KY $5,000 2002

Mr. Greeley Gone West Gainesway KY $35,000 1996

Pembroke Gone West Hermitage Farm LLC KY $1,500 1996

Pulpit A.P. Indy Claiborne Farm KY $80,000 1998

Seattle Fitz (Arg) =Fitzcarraldo (Arg) Buck Pond Farm KY $8,500 2005

Smarty Jones Elusive Quality Three Chimneys Farm KY $100,000
2005

Soto Dehere Highclere KY $7,500 2005

Speightstown Gone West WinStar Farm KY $40,000 2005

Stormin Fever Storm Cat Airdrie Stud KY $15,000 2000

Stormy Atlantic Storm Cat Hill 'n' Dale Farms KY $20,000 1999

Tale of the Cat Storm Cat Ashford Stud KY $50,000 1999

Taste of Paradise Conquistador Cielo Crestwood Farm KY $6,000 2006

Whywhywhy Mr. Greeley Gainesway KY $7,500 2004

===============================================

Copyright Bloodstock Research Information Services, Inc., 2003

Carly Pooh's dam & siblings below, thru 2003:

MISS VICE, 1991, Vice Regent- Arch Miss by Mississipian.
YRS ST WN PL SH EARNED SR SSI

1996 World On A String,c,Twining 4 34 2 2 4 32,656 ( 86) 0.42
North America Turf Record 2 0 0 0 2,592 ( 79)
North America Dirt Sprints 14 0 1 2 5,977 ( 86)
North America Dirt Routes 18 2 1 2 24,087 ( 86)
North America Muddy/Sloppy 2 0 0 0 146 ( 63)
DP = 10-2-8-0-2 DI = 2.67 CD = 0.82 AWD = 8.50
Sold at Hip # Sales Price Sire Avg Rank Stud Fee
KEENOV 1996 1085 $170,000 $89,462 wlg ( 2/13) $10,000
KEESEP 1997 331 $200,000 $55,587 ylg ( 1/28) $10,000
BESMAY 1998 102 $150,000 $95,615 2yo ( 3/13) $10,000

1997 Carly Pooh,f,Beau Genius 5 52 11 4 7 159,845 ( 90) 1.47
North America 2 YO Record 3 1 0 0 9,880 ( 81)
North America Turf Record 15 2 1 3 30,900 ( 83)
North America Dirt Sprints 22 4 2 1 60,630 ( 87)
North America Dirt Routes 15 5 1 3 68,315 ( 90)
North America Muddy/Sloppy 3 0 0 0 550 ( 68)
DP = 6-1-4-0-1 DI = 3.00 CD = 0.92 AWD = 7.47
Sold at Hip # Sales Price Sire Avg Rank Stud Fee
KEESEP 1998 2127 $37,000 $33,474 ylg (11/35) $10,000

1998 Shadow Steele,f,Smart Strike 4 27 2 3 1 34,831 ( 86) 0.49
North America 2 YO Record 4 1 0 0 15,300 ( 78)
North America Turf Record 2 0 0 1 1,250 ( 77)
North America Dirt Sprints 18 1 3 0 21,714 ( 86)
North America Dirt Routes 7 1 0 0 11,867 ( 81)
DP = 10-2-9-0-1 DI = 3.00 CD = 0.91 AWD = 7.00
Sold at Hip # Sales Price Sire Avg Rank Stud Fee
KEENOV 1998 1230 $90,000 $53,250 wlg ( 2/ 6) $30,000

1999 Babinsky,g,Prospect Bay 3 25 6 1 1 60,833 ( 90) 0.87
North America 2 YO Record * 3 1 0 0 7,800 ( 73)
North America Dirt Sprints 25 6 1 1 60,833 ( 90)
North America Muddy/Sloppy 4 2 0 1 14,184 ( 87)
DP = 8-2-11-0-1 DI = 2.38 CD = 0.73 AWD = 6.25
Sold at Hip # Sales Price Sire Avg Rank Stud Fee
KEENOV 1999 2019 $30,000 $16,083 wlg ( 2/ 6) $10,000
KEESEP 2000 2695 $72,000 $24,389 ylg ( 2/25) $10,000

2000 Who Won,g,Distorted Humor 1 2 0 0 0 240 ( 40) 0.02
North America Dirt Sprints 2 0 0 0 240 ( 40)
DP = 7-2-9-0-2 DI = 2.08 CD = 0.60
Sold at Hip # Sales Price Sire Avg Rank Stud Fee
FTKOCT 2001 0295 $13,000 $36,653 ylg (20/32) $12,500

2001 For Her Ego,c,Distorted Humor Unraced
DP = 7-2-9-0-2 DI = 2.08 CD = 0.60
SIRE 5.46 Spi, 62str, 49%2yo, 20%1st, 23%Mud/92sts, 16%Tf/51sts, AWD 6.7
DAM(w) 0.66 Dpi, 3 2yostr/3wnr, 18%Mud/11sts, 3 Tfstr/1wnr, 3 Rtestr/3wnr, AWD 7.2

2002 Mr. Vice,c,Unbridled Jet Unraced
DP = 3-2-8-0-3 DI = 1.29 CD = 0.13
SIRE 0.00 Spi, 0str, 0%2yo, 0%1st, 0%Mud/0 0%Tf/0 0.0
DAM(w) 0.66 Dpi, 3 2yostr/3wnr, 18%Mud/11sts, 3 Tfstr/1wnr, 3 Rtestr/3wnr, AWD 7.2

[mikec]

Okey Dokey then ; we're pretty much on the same page here with my mare & I think now you see why my earlier postings may have been somewhat jaded. By the way ; your analysis, excepting stallion choices, mirrors that of one of the " experts " I hired. Pat yourself on the back 'cause she's the one I'm using. The other " expert " ( I hired two ) I've disregarded entirely 'cause I honestly feel that even I, with no expertise, had more common sense.
You touched on all the reasons why I bought this particular mare ( flew to Oklahoma to get her ) in the first place although the earnings you listed are incomplete but...big deal ! Oh ; I'm from New Jersey - not Kentucky - but will go to Ky. & Fl. for breeding.
She just delivered a nice healthy filly by Slew City Slew, 3/4 to SIS CITY, so we're off to a good start here. I'll keep you posted on where we go from here 'cause I had a feeling once you looked at the pedigree you'd see where I was coming from. In the meantime thanks for taking the time to look.

[mikec]

Hey BJ,
Without going into a whole lot of detail I thought I'd mention why I was toying with Wando in the first place. As you can see from Carly's pedigree I enjoy a challenge...understatement ?
I agree it's really, really close inbreeding and ordinarily I'd back away from it and probably will anyway but...
1 ) Wando's Dam, Royal Colleen, and Beau Genius are both Gr.II winners - pretty good for a mare to produce a pair. Inbreeding to her through 2 classy runners, who are also proven superior breeding stock, might just work.
2) This mating, doubling Royal Colleen, would give me a 4 X 4 to ViceRegal and a 4 X 4 X 3 to full bro's ViceRegal & Vice Regent.
3 ) Wando's sire, Langfuhr, is also inbred 3 X 3 to Nearctic ( once through ND and once through Briartic - didn't seem to bother him - and it would reinforce from " behind " already existent inbreeding through the best offspring of a pretty good broodmare.
4 ) Problem - 3 X 3 inbreeding to Royal Colleen raises that whole bad recessives issue not knowing all that much about Royal Colleen.
Okay ; that was longer than I wanted !!!