Bad stallions ...

[Sam]

the horse must not have had any shade or enough water to die from Northern Ca. heat.....what a crying shame

You might want to do a little research into what causes an embolism before you make those kind of ill-informed comments.

As for "Northern Ca. heat" ... I've been in Sacto in August ... the only difference between "Northern Ca. heat" and Vegas heat in August is Vegas is dry.

4 years later .. I'm still not sure which is better. I think I'd rather have the 110 in Sacto with the humidity ... at least my nose wouldn't bleed for 30 straight days.

And Sanger (where Old English Rancho currently is) isn't exactly "Northern Ca." anyway. It's just south of Fresno -- which makes it central CA in the heart of farm country and it gets hotter than blue-blazin' hell there during the summer.

[adrienne]

The honest truth, IMO, is that there are not many good stallion handlers out there.

Not saying that I am a great or perfect stallion handler, but I was 'started' by a brilliant stallion handler and I have been learning and improving with every experience I have.

Each stallion has their ways and their particular points and you need to take time to learn them.

MOST stallions are more scared of people than anything else. They have been manhandled and have become defensive. In this defensiveness they learn how to manhandle and scare people back.

My main tools for making and keeping stallions good citizens is:

1) Have a set routine for everything. When we breed here at Illinois Stud, we bring in the mare and wash her. Put her in a stall. I go get the stallion. We tease him, back him up, wash him. I take him for a walk while the mare handler prepares. When the mare is ready, she is brought out and I bring the stallion in. He MUST tease her, then he can mount. Afterwards, the mare gets walked and the stallion gets put away. This is the way it IS... it took Sabona two breedings to figure out. Now he would probably do it by himself. LoL. Maybe I'm strange but one of the biggest rewards you can get as a stallion manager is to have the stallion back himself away from the mare to be washed. It's total submission to your routine.

2) Never get worked up. If the stallion is bad. Discipline. If the stallion is good. Leave him alone. When you are going into the breeding shed, he's going to be excited, you don't have to be excited too!!! This seems simple but I have known SO many people who, it seems, almost purposely get the stallion all worked up on the way to the breeding shed. It makes NO sense to me! I act the same for teasing, breeding, turning out, bringing in... the stallion figures out that he should too.

3) Discipline smartly. I've found one good smack on the knees with a dressage whip (the purple sparkley 4' whip we call the 'stallion beating stick', tongue in cheek of course) works a WHOLE lot better than a days worth of screaming and jerking.

4) Leading a stallion is a full sensory experience. Always keep one eye on him and about 10 more eyes on what is going on around him. Always be AWARE but never fearful. Sabona WILL try to snap at me when we walk by one of the other stallions... he will do it fast too. He will also try to work the chain out of his mouth in a really quiet careful way, which is actually kind of cute, lol.

5) Remember that you hold in your hands the ULTIMATE reward. It's easy to train when you have such a good reward. Haha.

We have this stallion, Tough Call (Deputy Minister x Reminiscing). Everyone is terrified of him. They say back things about him. About 5 minutes after meeting him, I realized his main problem is that he is QUITE sensitive. He has the personality of a 3 year old child. He loves to stick his tongue out and have you pull on it (though about every 6th or 7th time, he will try to bite you... I'm sure he thinks that is part of the game). He's scared to have his head touched (ear twitch anyone?). He won't let the chain go in his mouth (he's not that dumb). And he's learned one great trick that has served him really well. If you displease him (as him to step back to be washed)... he WILL rear up and try to come down on top of you. He realized that if he gets CLOSE to people... he will get his way. Thankfully the first time he did this to me, I had my stick. Sadly, he's been getting away with this behavior for a long time... so it will probably take all breeding season to get him out of it. I certainly hope I can, I think the life of a stallion is sad enough, it would be much worse to be a phariah. And I think he's a really sweet guy. He's a biter, and a striker... but he's more scared than anything else.

That being said... I won't say that there aren't scary stallions out there. And there are stallions out there that you couldn't pay me enough to handle. However, I've found that stallions that I originally was hesitant to handle turned around VERY quickly when given the opportunity.

~Adrienne

[rds]

Walter Willy was quite difficult. He was probably abused at some point, which we theorize was in France. I say that because I know and respect those that handled him in the US.

Fact - He was owned by exactly two (2) owners in the USA.

Fact - I stood him for 4 years, the last 2 at my farm near Sacramento.

Fact - He was put down because he had a brain hemmorage, commonly called a stroke. I have a report from UC Davis to back that.

Fact - July 2005 was the hottest on record in Sacramento. Willy had a shelter and ample water. God only knows why he had a brain hemmorage.

Fact - He was magnificent and we very much regret his loss.

When you breed for competitiveness - a side effect is agressiveness. Anyone handling a Thoroughbred Stallion needs to be patient, calm and have steady nerves.

Please be responsible with statements made on the forum. The idea is to be helpful, not to spread rumors.

[TrueColours]

adrienne - what a terrific post. Thank you SO much!

I have learned SO much from the stallions I have dealt with (up to 4 now), and the main thing is that they are ALL different, and they ALL need to be treated with respect as individuals and you really DO need to find out what makes them happy, what makes them function at optimum efficiency and what boundaries you need to set with them and how you deal with them if they choose to overstep those boundaries occassionally ...

My first stallion - Spot Pocket - was probably the best stallion a young, dumb, stupid new stallion owner could have hoped for. He taught me SO much but what I didnt realize at the time, was that not every stallion was Spotty, and you had to adapt to each new stallion and not the other way around!

yes - there are some basic principles that they all must follow, but I think there the similarities end and thats when you need to take a step back and assess the animal you are handling and figure out what makes him tick and how you can achieve a harmonious relationship with him in breeding and non breeding situations.

I believe that it is very true that all stallions have an incredible sense of fair play, and they know when they are being dealt a crummy hand by their handlers and they will stew on it and they will nail you if you let your guard down if you have been unfair and unjust to them in the past. They will accept constructive discipline as long as it is fair and just and in keeping with the infraction at hand , they hate being niggled at constantly - as adrienne said - dole out the fair discipline and then move on. You will have the stallion's respect by doing so!

A good stallion that has mutual respect with his handler will always give 110% in every single thing that he does. Personally - I love dealing with stallions and mares follow a close second ... They can be quirky and can test the limits of your patience at times but I find them both extremely gratifying and I find it interesting that some people will not tolerate either as show animals, but always opt for geldings instead

Its a shame that some stallions end up like they do and you wish that you could turn back time and make things better for them. These angry and dangerous stallions must be mentally tortured - there is really no other way to put it and its a shame that the humans that are entrusted with their care allowed it to happen in the first place ...

[Derring]

"Please be responsible with statements made on the forum. The idea is to be helpful, not to spread rumors."



Well said.

[Sunday Silence]

I have a silly question, but what would likely happen if you put a baddie like Halo or Dynaformer in a 50 acre paddock with about three mares?

I heard about a popular Standardbred who was meaner than Halo or Dynaformer. He once got loose and tried to kill the groom who was hiding underneath a car for safety.

[Pan Zareta]

What is behind Coolmore's stallion management ideas? I'm only speaking of Ashford, as I've never visited Ireland, etc. Their paddocks are the smallest I've seen for stallions. They turn them out far less than most farms. And, the stallions don't grow winter coats because they blanket them. Plus, the huge books of mares they get. None of this would seem to add up to contentment. On the whole, they seem to have more stallions with "issues."

Imho, it's an equine battery barn.

In regard to St. Simon & the goat, I don't know the specifics on that, but I know from first hand experience that even the sweetest, most even-tempered gelding will, when provoked, pick up a goat by the back of the neck and toss it as far and forcefully as possible. Usually a dispute over grain is involved.

I'd heard some behavioral negatives about Louisiana Slew. We had a granddaughter of his hit the ground four years ago and she's wanted to run the place since day one. Not mean, but smart, strong-willed, and manipulative. Who was it, Camohn maybe, that used the term "Nasrullatude"? That filly's got it in spades. The goats do not mess w/ her.

[Nijinsky]

FYI...Sam
Walter Willy stood at Windsor Thoroughbreds in WILTON right near Sacramento, when he was "Put Down" I have heard from a very good source the real reason why he was put down and I still tend to believe it. It does make for a nicer story though. rds may be telling the truth....I do not really know.....I'd really have to see proof otherwise. Personally any horse that jeopardizes a humans life and is consisdered a man killer should be put down along with any dog that bites unprovoked.

Fact - He was owned by exactly two (2) owners in the USA.

He may have only been "owned" by two owners but he stayed at many farms in Ca. 4 or 5 was it ? which results in many handlers.

[Sam]

Walter Willy stood at Windsor Thoroughbreds in WILTON right near Sacramento, when he was "Put Down"

yeah, I'd forgotten that. Last thing I have on him in my records had him still at OER in 2003. Not a line or horse I was interested in so I don't follow it as dilligently.

I have heard from a very good source the real reason why he was put down and I still tend to believe it.

So let me get this straight.

rds -- Owner as time of horse's death. Has documentation from UC Davis on why horse died.

"Nijinsky" -- In no way connected to the horse and spreading 3rd hand rumour from "very good source" who was most likely not connected to the horse either.

Excuse me if I chose not to believe BS rumours from undisclosed sources.

[Double_Jay]

Help me out here! I remember hearing stories of Ribot, and it had something to do with him throwing a hissy fit and climbing a tree in his paddock and they had to remove the tree or move him to a treeless paddock as they were afraid he would fall out and hurt himself

Does anyone have a clue what I am talking about and know the whole story???

They way I heard that story, more than once & from different sources, is that Ribot had a very...errr...heightened libido, and he was trying to breed the tree.

That makes a lot more sense to me than him trying to climb it, unless you use "climb" in mounting context.

D_J

[Nijinsky]

"Nijinsky" -- In no way connected to the horse and spreading 3rd hand rumour from "very good source" who was most likely not connected to the horse either.

That is alot of assuming on your part....not only that rds told a mutal acquaintance that he was attacked by the horse so he had him put down. If that isn't true our mutal acquaintance was wrong. What can I say.
:

[Sam]

They way I heard that story, more than once & from different sources, is that Ribot had a very...errr...heightened libido, and he was trying to breed the tree.

[Fairplayfarm]

Adrienne and Dalene, you are so right (as well as others with similar comments) It all comes down to management and handling from day one. I have had OTTBs, WBs, Arab, and Appy studs...many different temps...every stallion has a unique temperment and quirks. I have 5 breeding stallions and 4 young colts they are all turned out with one another ALL year long. My boys know when they are being used for breeding, chain under their lip is their cue to be in breeding mode and otherwise i generally dont use a chain on them. Often its just a rope around the neck to lead them past the mares to their pasture in the morning. Now i know people are probably shocked that breeding stallions are turned out together, but its only natural (hence batchelor herds in the wild). In my experience with stallions being turned out together I have only had one bad incident with one stallion...An OTTB I had (now deceased due to a breeding injury) would turn savage and chase the other stallions through fences if they ever got running in their pasture or paddock. He chased his track buddy almost a mile into the woods and left him and came home to graze on the lawn next to the other boys...He was fine any other time and wouldnt so much as squeal with the others...only when they got running on occasion would he get nasty. Our stallions enjoy their turnout and riding time and it really shows. My 4yo app came here needing an electric wire across his door to keep from taking it down, being walked with a chain through his mouth and a stick in hand...he now can be lead with a simple rope around his neck, and with stand with a stall chain for a door...its all in the handling.
A lady not too far from me had me train a few horses for her shes an old app breeder and has two stallions...treated like criminals...stalled all their lives...one had been leased out and someone abused him badly...he's deathly terrified to have his feet done...im the only person whom he trusts to pick up his hind feet, he neurotic at this point with his ears being touched which is better than he was...and overall he's gone insane, he doesnt know how to act...in general presence of him you would think he would take your arm off and well he probably would however go in his stall and treat him kindly with tons of pets and lots of grooming and he tucks his head into you and goes to sleep...its really sad and if he wasnt 15 and i had a big pasture away from the other boys that i could turn him out with 2-3 mares I would kidnap him in a heartbeat. Dealing with hot or difficult temperments means you have to be smart about it and unfortunately not many stallion handlers/owners are. If you treat them like a criminal or a freak then they will act like one.

[kezeli]

I knew an arab breeder a long time ago(I was 12), anyway, she had this colt in a stall in an inside arena that was never used for anything but equipment storage and him. He was only about 3 and when ever she approached him she used a training whip to threaten him, not at all constructively, rather abusively, she claimed that is how one had to handle a colt. Earlier in the process I was feeding and he had no hay so I gave him a couple flakes, shook them out in the corner of his stall and everything, he just acked like a pushy colt but not bad, I had a hold on his halter that he never really argued with, and even turned around to be caught with no argument, he would rear and strike at the woman. So thats pretty classic negitive conditioning, wonder if he ever got to nail her :twisted:

[Retrospectiv]

What is behind Coolmore's stallion management ideas? I'm only speaking of Ashford, as I've never visited Ireland, etc. Their paddocks are the smallest I've seen for stallions. They turn them out far less than most farms. And, the stallions don't grow winter coats because they blanket them. Plus, the huge books of mares they get. None of this would seem to add up to contentment. On the whole, they seem to have more stallions with "issues."

Can't speak for the rest, but I can't imagine blanketing and the lack of winter coats has any contribution to any 'issues' they may have. As you know, most of their stallions shuttle to Oz. so they come home to Ky in Dec. or Jan. with no winter coats, coming from an Australian summer. It'd be a lot crueler if they didn't blanket them and expected them to go outside with summer coats and no protection from the cold.

On one of Ashford's recent dvds they actually did show Fu Peg gallavanting around his paddock, was nice to see.