Saint Ballado mare advice please

[TomFool]

A couple of stallions I would take a look at would be Medallist & Yankee Gentleman both I like tons. Another worth looking at if you want to spend a bit more but have a better idea about what you may get would be Dixie Union. Afore mention Forest Camp is another def worth considering.

[FOS]

hi jagger

Thanks for the friendly debate, FOS and Austique. As I am a newcomer to this TB industry, I want to hear all arguements, philosophies and strategies. This forum is great for just that.

Agreed, this is a place where comments, interactions, viewpoints, insights and perspectives etc (re: the "TB industry") can be shared...and the exercise(s) might sometimes bear fruit.

After much agony and debate amongst the partners, we will be taking her to Northern Afleet.

Northern Afleet...an excellent choice...no more agony necessary, especially knowing now that Saintly Magic's nearly 17HH.

NA does have a more favorable appearance than QA although this may not be a problem as Saintly Magic is quite large (almost 17) and very attractive.

Believe it or not, I would have seconded a motion (early on) for Northern Afleet if you had then indicated that you had your heart set on ONLY going to stallion that has had runners...AND that Saintly Magic is a big (as in tall) girl...

A consideration (from my perspective) when selecting a mare for Northern Afleet, is that he seems to often get an average size or smaller foal; probably more often when the mare herself doesn't bring plenty of size to the table, to counter (what I perceive as) his tendency. A maiden mare can arguably advance that concern. I expect that issue of potential concern has now diminished dramatically, since based on your description of Saintly Magic (above)...she is nearly 17HH...WOW.

I liked the Dr. Fager that QA brings to the equation as well as upgrades on several other significant horses in his pedigree cross with SM that actually improves on St. Liam's linebreeding page, IMHO.

Certainly if Dr Fager appeals to you, Northern Afleet doesn't deliver that...but I believe that Northern Afleet offers plenty of quality from a pedigree standpoint. Plus, as you know...Northern Afleet when bred to a Saint Ballado daughter has produced a G2 winner in Saint Afleet. I suggest this is comforting and potentially a valuable matter of fact that prospective buyers of a Northern Afleet/Saintly Magic (by Saint Ballado) foal might find compelling.

Another consideration which I suggest favors Northern Afleet in the Northern Afleet vs Quiet American debate, is that...Northern Afleet (1993) is young as compared to Quiet American (1986). I sense that NA's best years are ahead of him; whereas QA's best years might be behind him.

For what it's worth...if you recall, I wrote "...I don't believe that Saintly Magic warrants a big stud fee in her. Maybe $20k...maybe...and even then, only if the match seems like it's made in heaven."
At $20k Northern Afleet fits the range...

...and with the mare being named Saintly Magic, it sounds like maybe this was intended to be the heavenly selection .

Best of Luck!!!

Respectfully

[jagger]

Thanks, FOS, for the kind words of encouragement and approval.

Another possible piece of divine intervention as regards Saintly Magic - While at work the other day, I went in to our department office and saw a pile of perhaps 10 or 12 fortune cookies. I picked one. Opened it. My "lucky number" was 656 - - Saintly Magic's hip # at the Fasig Tipton sale Place your bets now

[Elusive City]

[quote="madelyn"]ah the rules thing.. from the other perspective, there is a view that a mare should see a stallion who stands for a quarter of her value..

again, rules.

But No Matter how you feel about rules, spending 40 or 60K for a studfee for this maiden filly would be "overbreeding" her.[/quote]

rules smules.

Every hoss we had bred Itbaya to stud fee was more than what she is worth.

We overbred her the last 5 times and will overbreed her again this year.

we also broke the rule breeding a maiden mare to an unproven stallion.

IMHO rules were meant to be broken.

[FOS]

hi Elusive City

to madelyn

"rules smules.

Every hoss we had bred Itbaya to stud fee was more than what she is worth.

We overbred her the last 5 times and will overbreed her again this year.

we also broke the rule breeding a maiden mare to an unproven stallion.

IMHO rules were meant to be broken."

Okay then...is that the new rule ?

Best to you.

Respectfully

(I bolded EC's comment "IMHO rules were meant to be broken."

[hpkingjr]

Elusive City writes:
[rules smules.
Every hoss we had bred Itbaya to stud fee was more than what she is worth.

We overbred her the last 5 times and will overbreed her again this year.

we also broke the rule breeding a maiden mare to an unproven stallion.

IMHO rules were meant to be broken.[/quote]

Elusive: How much is Itbaya worth? Would you be kind enough to list the stallions and stud fee at time of breeding (what you actually paid not the listed fee), whether the foal was sold or raced, and if sold where and at what price? It would be helpful to me and possibly others to view your results, risks and rewards. Was there a method in your stallions selection for this mare?

[Elusive City]

Elusive: How much is Itbaya worth? Would you be kind enough to list the stallions and stud fee at time of breeding (what you actually paid not the listed fee), whether the foal was sold or raced, and if sold where and at what price? It would be helpful to me and possibly others to view your results, risks and rewards. Was there a method in your stallions selection for this mare?

none of our hosses have raced yet. But her first should be rolling next month.

Here is her breeding history:

2002: aborted Elusive Quality (10K stud fee)
2003: White Socks Rock; Elusive Quality (10K Stud Fee)
2004: Africa on My Mind; Anees (15K stud fee)
2005: Unnamed Sky Classic (12.5 stud fee)
2006: Bun in Oven rossini (10K stud fee)
2007: prospective foal Proud Citizen (17.5K stud fee)

Mostly we just listened to our breeding expert.Our expert loves the Rasmussen Factor, so all of our matings have that I also helps that Itbaya had so really good breeding to use the RF The person was extremely high on Elusive Quality and although some of the partners were leery I loved EQ (and still do to this day). The match EQ to a palace Music Mare won the UAE 1000 Guineaus this year on Thursday. The Late sire Anees
was also an excellent match for our mare as was Rossini. (both inbred to Natasha)Sky Classic was
used basically because of RF (flaming page) and of course he was our first (and only so far) use of a proven sire. and now our use of Proud Citizen RF to Natalma (he also gonna be a really good sire).

as for Itsy Value. (she ran in a 14K claimer (multiple times) with no takers, that should tell you all you need to know).

[hpkingjr]

Elusive:

Thanks for posting the stallions. All are nice. Best wishes for some winners. From your post I glean that you are primarily raising these foals to run yourself or in partnership with others and not to sell commerially. From what little I know about the Rasmussen factor it appears that a large number of the Gr 1 winners have Almamoud inbreeding. Where will you be racing?

[LSB]

Elusive City, Elusive Quality seems to have a nice affinity for Northern Dancer line mares. Aside from Vague, whom you referenced, he has also sired two graded stakes horses out of Dayjur mares. We have a 2YO by him who is out of a Boundary mare so, like you, we're hoping that the cross works again.

Good luck!

[Elusive City]

Elusive City, Elusive Quality seems to have a nice affinity for Northern Dancer line mares. Aside from Vague, whom you referenced, he has also sired two graded stakes horses out of Dayjur mares. We have a 2YO by him who is out of a Boundary mare so, like you, we're hoping that the cross works again.

Good luck!

Of Elusive Quality's 21 stakes winners:

12 were by Northern Dancer line broodmare sires

3 Danzig
2 Dixieland Band
2 Nijinsky
1 Mari's Book
1 Try My Best
1 Vice Regent
1 Staff Writer
1 The Minstrel (vague)

[FOS]

hi Elusive City

"...I loved EQ (and still do to this day)."

I expected so...Elusive Quality's first G1-winner and star was Elusive City...your namesake. From my perspective...Elusive Quality has an EXTREMELY bright future.

"and now our use of Proud Citizen RF to Natalma (he also gonna be a really good sire)."

"...gonna be a really good sire"... why such confidence in Proud Citizen?

"as for Itsy Value. (she ran in a 14K claimer (multiple times) with no takers, that should tell you all you need to know)."

The good news is that MANY fillies that have run for a relatively small tag have gone on to become wonderful broodmares...some producing exceptional racehorses...even champion caliber. One of those mares was Courtly Dee...who went on to become a Broodmare of the Year.

Best to you.

Respectfully

[Elusive City]

"and now our use of Proud Citizen RF to Natalma (he also gonna be a really good sire)."

"...gonna be a really good sire"... why such confidence in Proud Citizen?

I am a big advocate of the RF, as is our breeding expert Proud citizen makes every mare with Northern sire line an RF to Natalma, and of course I like the Gone West sire Line. If I had to venture a guess I put him above Mr Greeley but Below EQ and Grand Slam in value as a sire in the gone west line. Reports are good so far but you never know until they run on the track.

Thanks for the boost to Itsy, she just wasn't a stakes mare, her high BEYER was 89, about 10 points below a stakes mare. But when things were right she could motor and she was durable and retired sound at 9.
we figured her produce would also be sound and tough. So far so good.

[Morningside]

Elusive City, please don't take it the wrong way, but from an investment angle, overbreeding your mare is a risky strategy, and i'll give you the following example.
Consider a 500K mare bred to Gone West @ 125K. Let's assume the foal has no significant defects, you would expect it to sell for 250K-500K with the midpoint around 375K. In other words, your profitability on your incremental investment is (375K-125K)/125K = 200%
Now if a 50K mare is bred to Gone West @ 125K and the resulting foal has no significant defects, you would expect the foal to probably sell for 125K-200K, with a midpoint of around 160K. your profitability on your incremental investment drops down to 28%.
And don't forget the chance of having a foal with a major defect, and your 125K investment becomes a 25K foal...
The problem is that a lot of people think of the stud fee as an expense rather than an investment. You didn't mention how much your mare is worth, but let's assume for the moment that she's worth 10K. For your first 3 years, you've invested 55K in mare + stud fees altogether. I think you would've been much better off if you just bought a 55K mare and negotiated foal shares with 25K-30K stallions.
Again, I'm just trying to offer you a different perspective... hope you find it helpful.

[Elusive City]

[quote="Morningside"]Elusive City, please don't take it the wrong way, but from an investment angle, overbreeding your mare is a risky strategy, and i'll give you the following example.
Consider a 500K mare bred to Gone West @ 125K. Let's assume the foal has no significant defects, you would expect it to sell for 250K-500K with the midpoint around 375K. In other words, your profitability on your incremental investment is (375K-125K)/125K = 200%
Now if a 50K mare is bred to Gone West @ 125K and the resulting foal has no significant defects, you would expect the foal to probably sell for 125K-200K, with a midpoint of around 160K. your profitability on your incremental investment drops down to 28%.
And don't forget the chance of having a foal with a major defect, and your 125K investment becomes a 25K foal...
The problem is that a lot of people think of the stud fee as an expense rather than an investment. You didn't mention how much your mare is worth, but let's assume for the moment that she's worth 10K. For your first 3 years, you've invested 55K in mare + stud fees altogether. I think you would've been much better off if you just bought a 55K mare and negotiated foal shares with 25K-30K stallions.
Again, I'm just trying to offer you a different perspective... hope you find it helpful.[/quote]

ah investment. We are not in this to make money (obviously).

I understand that overbreeding is not the most prudent thing to do.
(OTOH--we did pick up a breeding to Elusive Quality on the cheap)

Breeding a good hoss is what we want, if we wanted to make money we sure wouldn't be breeding (and owning) horses.

Itsy a nice animal with decent bloodlines and a decent female family.

She's everyone fav, and if any horse deserves to be overbred it is her.

we shall see next month whether her first born is fast. (my fingers are crossed)

[Morningside]

I don't really understand why you think "breeding a good horse" and "making money" are mutually exclusive. The market place determines the price of a horse, and the buyers are willing to pay more for "good horses". So, if you're really breeding a good horse, you would be profitable in the sales ring, regardless of whether your original intention is to race or to sell...