Who was the most important stallion?
Which will have the most lasting sire line/broodmare line/who will have the longest importance? Who has had the longest importance?
Who was the most important stallion?
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LaTroienne
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Herod. His male line may be all but extinct, but genetically he's the biggest single influence on the TB if people a lot more knowledgeable than I about genetic analysis are to be believed.
"A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher...You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse." C. S. Lewis
Without the mares of Herod and his son Highflyer Eclipse would be nothing. This nick is the true origin of the TB-species.
Nearco has 4 crosses of St. Simon and Hyperion 2 crosses.
I think, it is almost impossible to compare sires of different centuries in their importance to the breed, as no younger sire would be without the champs of the past in his pedigree.
We made an inquery in a German forum to find the last mare in German tb breeding free of Nearco and we found one in 1998. When will be no tb without Northern Dancer? I think, it will be around 2015.
Nearco has 4 crosses of St. Simon and Hyperion 2 crosses.
I think, it is almost impossible to compare sires of different centuries in their importance to the breed, as no younger sire would be without the champs of the past in his pedigree.
We made an inquery in a German forum to find the last mare in German tb breeding free of Nearco and we found one in 1998. When will be no tb without Northern Dancer? I think, it will be around 2015.
I agree with Parlo, in that only sires of concurrent generations can be compared. However, it makes sense that those current and past sires who produced sire sons and productive broodmares in large quantity and geographic distribution will be the most widespread in pedigrees of the current and future, especially as breeding continues to become less provincial.
Rocking H
How come I can't vote?
-llbean
UPDATE: Oh yeah, I had to Log In first...
-llbean
UPDATE: Oh yeah, I had to Log In first...
Last edited by llbean on Wed May 03, 2006 7:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
"What happened is merely a sample of what might have happened, weighted by probability."
http://www.venturageoscore.com/
http://www.venturageoscore.com/
Mahubah wrote:
That may very well be correct but:
A. We don't actually have Herod's Genotype as of this writing so all we really have are estimates based on the number of Times He Shows up in which Generations. Even a Paternal Grandsire isn't a sure thing to give 25% of the Genes to a foal (it could be more, it could be less), so how much moreso could there be variation with a great-great....great-grandsire.
B. Herod is further back than St Simon, etc. and thus likely his Chromosomes have been recombined more and therefore less complete Gene Combinations from Herod are probably found in the Modern Thoroughbred (perhaps Herod is inbred to enough that this doesn't matter nearly as much as much as it otherwise would, though).
C. Herod's Genes have likely been subject to more Mutations over time given that whereas with Northern Dancer the modern horse may have a copy of a copy of a copy of Northern Dancer's Gene, with Herod he has a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of copy of a copy, etc., etc., etc, of Herod's Gene.
and...
D. Even forgetting about the off Guanine that's now an Adenine due to Mutation, to me it is quite possible that there's now more Genes in the Modern Thoroughbred that were once in Northern Dancer and come from him than there are Genes in the Modern Thoroughbred that were once in Herod and come from him. You see, even though Herod is in 100% of Thoroughbreds whereas ND is in significantly less; those who do have Northern Dancer tend to have more of him (I think) and that may make up for it.
Still, if it wasn't for Northern Dancer we'd most assuredly still have a Thoroughbred Breed faster than any other by far at most distances.
Without Herod, who knows? So in that sense Herod might be the most important thoroughbred stallion to ever live (though Eclipse wasn't something to sneeze at).
Let me double check exactly what % Sparkman gave for Herod...
-llbean
Herod. His male line may be all but extinct, but genetically he's the biggest single influence on the TB if people a lot more knowledgeable than I about genetic analysis are to be believed.
That may very well be correct but:
A. We don't actually have Herod's Genotype as of this writing so all we really have are estimates based on the number of Times He Shows up in which Generations. Even a Paternal Grandsire isn't a sure thing to give 25% of the Genes to a foal (it could be more, it could be less), so how much moreso could there be variation with a great-great....great-grandsire.
B. Herod is further back than St Simon, etc. and thus likely his Chromosomes have been recombined more and therefore less complete Gene Combinations from Herod are probably found in the Modern Thoroughbred (perhaps Herod is inbred to enough that this doesn't matter nearly as much as much as it otherwise would, though).
C. Herod's Genes have likely been subject to more Mutations over time given that whereas with Northern Dancer the modern horse may have a copy of a copy of a copy of Northern Dancer's Gene, with Herod he has a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of copy of a copy, etc., etc., etc, of Herod's Gene.
and...
D. Even forgetting about the off Guanine that's now an Adenine due to Mutation, to me it is quite possible that there's now more Genes in the Modern Thoroughbred that were once in Northern Dancer and come from him than there are Genes in the Modern Thoroughbred that were once in Herod and come from him. You see, even though Herod is in 100% of Thoroughbreds whereas ND is in significantly less; those who do have Northern Dancer tend to have more of him (I think) and that may make up for it.
Still, if it wasn't for Northern Dancer we'd most assuredly still have a Thoroughbred Breed faster than any other by far at most distances.
Without Herod, who knows? So in that sense Herod might be the most important thoroughbred stallion to ever live (though Eclipse wasn't something to sneeze at).
Let me double check exactly what % Sparkman gave for Herod...
-llbean
"What happened is merely a sample of what might have happened, weighted by probability."
http://www.venturageoscore.com/
http://www.venturageoscore.com/
How about including mares and stallions
Here is a short list of great influences
Nasrullah
Weekend Surprise
Somethingroyal
Almahmoud
Mumtaz Begum
Mumtaz Mahal
Northern Dancer
Mr. Prospector
Nearco
Hail to Reason
Flower Bowl
Special
Native Dancer
Rough Shod II
Princequillo
Mahmoud
Ribot
Hyperion
Bold Ruler
Pharos
Phalaris
Storm Cat
Seattle Slew
Ballade
Nasrullah
Weekend Surprise
Somethingroyal
Almahmoud
Mumtaz Begum
Mumtaz Mahal
Northern Dancer
Mr. Prospector
Nearco
Hail to Reason
Flower Bowl
Special
Native Dancer
Rough Shod II
Princequillo
Mahmoud
Ribot
Hyperion
Bold Ruler
Pharos
Phalaris
Storm Cat
Seattle Slew
Ballade
Hi all,
I voted for Domino. I thought (correctly?) that he wouldn't be voted for and as a percentage of his foals that impacted he's unique and not so distant.
Question was asked before but this has good discussion.
Would like to add more but my ham of a hand keeps loading help screens and sending unwanted emails.
Regards,
Pete
I voted for Domino. I thought (correctly?) that he wouldn't be voted for and as a percentage of his foals that impacted he's unique and not so distant.
Question was asked before but this has good discussion.
Would like to add more but my ham of a hand keeps loading help screens and sending unwanted emails.
Regards,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
My vote has to be for a mare and it would be Plucky Liege
Who was the most important stallion is tough but my vote would have to be for a mare and that would be Plucky Liege the dam of Sir Gallahad III, Bull Dog and Bois Roussel. Another great sire not mentioned who may be the most important sire is Teddy the sire of Sir Gallahad III and La Troienne.
Keith
Keith