WHATS THE REASON ?

[louis finochio]

The TB of decades ago started 40-50 or more starts in their lifetime. What was the reason that they accomplished their many starts. Was is outcrossing? Was is deeper tracks with more cushion? Were the races longer distances than today, making for a slower pace? The spindle bone in most of the TB legs today doesnt seem to last very long, as the average starts of today's stallions has dropped sharply.

[Sylvie Hebert]

less training,more hothouse babies.bones get stronger when stressed...

[Crystal]

did you read the article in this months bloodhorse about Ken and Sarah Ramsey. They try to raise tough, durable, "streetsmart" horses, not show horses who happen to race.. Great article.

[bcassidy]

I have noticed in old pictures how, thin and long legged the animals appear when compared to today's horse. With our fascination for speed over shorter distances have we introduced a fleshier, more muscle oriented body type which stresses the bone structure greater and leads to injuries? Just my opinions based upon some casual observations. I was also told they didn't have effective wormers back than and that they even used tobacco in some form to help with worms. Anybody else hear the same thing? But ineffective worming could also lower the body wieght of the animals as well. Thoughts or comments

[Inish Glora]

There is year round racing now, I think that is a problem too.

[henthorn]

All the things mentioned make sense. Lighter bodies, longer distances, bred for staying power more than for speed, different track surfaces, more pasture time, frequent racing to keep the bone nourished and rebuilding itself, different farrier techniques, incentives to race longer rather than going to stud earlier, forced layoffs for bleeders. Injured horses treated through rest and progressive exercise rehab, not surgery and joint injections. It's multi-factorial.

[madelyn]

I think the fact that horses are pushed much harder much younger has a pretty big impact on soundness later in life. I have several Kentucky Derby books (the 1949 edition, the 1975 edition, etc.) that my father-in-law had collected and if you read about the early Derby winners, most had very few, if any, starts as 2 yo's..

When looking at sport horse prospects, it is almost nearly a given that if a horse was run hard at 2, there will be arthritis evidence showing up at 7. Further, if a 2 yo is getting hock injections, well what do you think that horse's legs will be like at 4?

[TEXAS]

The correct term is the same as the kids of today... 'couch potato"..

I see people everywhere breaking babies at 16 months old.... dang colt can hardly support the weight of the rider... then they wonder why he has knee problems... knee caps don't form until babies are 25-30 months old... human babies 2-4 years old...
and the same people out there torturing that colt... have 25-35 year old kids still living at home...
one of the old television series I always wndered about was PONDEROSA with all those big old sissy boys following papa around... and everytime a girl showed up on the show they either got killed or ran off with another man.... never wanted that bunch to be neighbors with me...
justagrinnin...

Also, the misconception of softer and deeper track surfaces is totally wrong... ever go jogging on a beach or even while leading a horse on a race track to the saddling area..vs... a jogging track in a city park or watch the olympics... ever see one 6-10 inches deep.. no you don't.

If the racing surface was that great to run on... don't you think some joggers would have found it by this time and be jogging there every afternoon and bringing their friends??

Even when starting any type of horse in a round pen.. if it is deep sand.. you have to be careful not to pull ligaments, chip knees and all the racing ailments known to man can be recreated right there in that little 100ft pen due to deep footing.. to alleviate this you smooth it out and place a water sprinkler in there to compress the surface... not run tractors over it continuously sifting the surface and leaving hidden compacted spots...

Then there are the senseless toe grabs on the front feet... that foot has to skate when coming into contact with the ground and that foot is prevented from doing this with toe grabs...prior to even thinking about 'turning over'... so what idiot decided that a horse pulls himself along with his front feet... all the push is in the rear with the front only aiding his in-flight suspension when galloping and direction of travel. Why don't they put toe grabs on human shoes???

So if you think the track surfaces are not soft or deep enough... run down to city hall and have them change your jogging and walking paths to deep soft concussion proof footing... laughig texas... besure and cut down all the big trees arond your neighborhood... and lock up your ropes...
keepsmiling... texas

[Sylvie Hebert]

texas i agree will all just said and more.ever ask one one those gameboy video watching couch potato to run a full speed mile with ballerina shoes in deep sand and well why not ad a monkey on their shoulders whipping their face for good measure....and don't forget no food that day so they carry less weight...

[KAL]

Texas,

Nice post... but...

As a former track athlete (even as dismal as I was), I hated running on some of cinder tracks because they weren't maintained and there was no cushion (shin splints were a problem on our "practice track", until new assistant coach figured out problem was that it was so terribly hard). I also hated doing roadwork on pavement because of the concussion on my legs and back however "coach" wasn't crazy about us doing roadwork on grass because of the likelihood of sprains and twists.

Anyway, I loved the softer synthetic surfaces which we ran on at times and some of the better maintained cinder tracks were good as well. The difference was simply the pounding. In fact, if you take the sprains and twists out of the equation, mother nature provides a much kinder surface over a poorly maintained man-made one.

Now, I look at the size, speed, and power of a thoroughbred, listen to what exercise riders, jocks, and trainers are saying, review the times being ran, especially at big events by fairly ordinary horses, and consider my own track experiences, I am lead to believe that track conditions need to be investigated and monitored with harsh penalties for improper management levied when found. They probably could use some standardizing, with individualization due to materials, climate, etc. being considered.

I absolutely agree that hot-housed babies and "couch potatoes" are problematic. Personally, I don't like to see yearlings who are completely free of scars or "blemishes". Those types have been hot-housed or, at the least, isolated. A natural, authentic, healthy yearling who has spent a considerable amount of time in pasture and with other horses, should have a scratch or two.

I also think most are pushed too hard too young. Some handle it fine, others break.

[Mahubah]

I was no track athlete, but I did an awful lot of walking/running while in the Air Force and still remember the surfaces at Officer Training School all too well. Got shin splints from pounding the concrete sidewalks and all sorts of joint strains from a too-deep and uneven cinder track. The good track to run on was a one-mile clay surface that was pretty even but had just a little give in it. Only hitch was, it couldn't be used after dark because you might step on a rattlesnake then....

Anyway, a moderately cushioned track surface (or good quality turf) of even consistency seems to be the best bet.

[louis finochio]

When you look at old photos of Kelso who made 63 lifetime starts, you will find a long body on medium spindle legs. When you look at a photo of Native Diver 81 lifetime starts you will find a long body on spindle legs. Kelso and Native Diver were able to make that many starts because they didnt have a frame like a QH or pear shaped. Kelso and Native Diver had a frame resembling a greyhound. When you breed to a QH type TB stallion too heavy foreward or to heavy or blocky hind quarters, you are placing too much stress on the underpinning, especialy if the legs are leaning towards the spindle and fine bone type.

[st. louis kid]

along that line of thinking, what are some stallions that are lean bodied resembling a greyhound,. and what stallions have that blocky, muscular quarter horse frame as you discuss.

[louis finochio]

To find the types of Blocky TB Stallions, you will find their pictures In the Stallion Directory. I am not one to knock those types of stallions because I dont want to start a personal vendetta against the same. I respect their stallions as this industry is tough enough to come up with a quality stallion.
Take notes when you look at the stallions pictures and then divide the total starters into their total starts and you will have the stallions progeny average starts. This is a great research project, as I have done this research myself. The stallions progeny average starts is another tool to use before you decide which stallion you want to breed to.

[Joe]

What did tilt the board was Wilco, making his 11th start of his 2YO year in the BC. Actually it wasn't a real stretch to pick him because he was the most experienced and had excellent dirt breeding.