Ok I'm so sick of Phalaris - I know less about him than I did 200 postings ago. I'm pretty sure he was a stallion, likely a TB, and I think he's dead now.
Here's the challenge. Hypomate a real life sire (alive today) with a real life mare (also alive today) and come up with a 9 gen linebreeding that has NO CROSSES TO PHALARIS! None. Nada. Once a sire is used - can't be used again, once a mare is used - can't be used again. Let's see how many we get and what these hypomatings look like.
Phalaris Game
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geowarrior
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Re: Phalaris Game
geowarrior wrote:Ok I'm so sick of Phalaris - I know less about him than I did 200 postings ago. I'm pretty sure he was a stallion, likely a TB, and I think he's dead now.
Here's the challenge. Hypomate a real life sire (alive today) with a real life mare (also alive today) and come up with a 9 gen linebreeding that has NO CROSSES TO PHALARIS! None. Nada. Once a sire is used - can't be used again, once a mare is used - can't be used again. Let's see how many we get and what these hypomatings look like.
Ah...You first
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geowarrior
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geowarrior
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Ok I think this is a bit of a cheat because there are a bazillion crosses to Pharos (son of Phalaris) in this hypomating but if you look at the linebreeding chart, 9 generations, min crosses 2, standard settings otherwise you don't see any crosses to Phalaris himself for these two. Final Markdown is a young son of Dynaformer standing in Pennsylvania, Raja's Decision is a 26 year old mare listed for sale on the Pennsylvania Canter Site. Says she throws good foals but I would not breed this poor soul at her age. Nevertheless she is alive (and doesn't look her age, apparently). Best I can do to start things off - maybe I'm not understanding this right but that was one of my problems with the whole Phalaris discussion as what constitutes a cross. If the extensive presence of Pharos makes this a cheat I apologize. If I've made some other kind of mistake then maybe I'll learn something that I haven't from the discussions so far.
Final Markdown - Raja's Decision
Final Markdown - Raja's Decision
http://www.pedigreequery.com/cor+magnifique
Exisiting horse, used for sport not racing. All Phalaris is on Dams side, closest is in gen 7, plus two others occurances in gen 9, if I counted correctly. Please correct me if I didn't count or missed an occurance somewhere.... I don't think this game will have a winner.
Exisiting horse, used for sport not racing. All Phalaris is on Dams side, closest is in gen 7, plus two others occurances in gen 9, if I counted correctly. Please correct me if I didn't count or missed an occurance somewhere.... I don't think this game will have a winner.
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Shammy Davis
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Now, I don't have any actual proof of this, but I am certain that Phalaris is the reason there is and always will be war in the middle east. He was also the second shooter on the grassy knoll. How many sons of Phalaris were serial killers? The iceberg that sank the Titanic had 13 crosses of Phalaris. Oh wait, sorry, forgot that only the stallion side of the family counts and only for five generations, so it only had 7 crosses of Phalaris. Damn that evil horse!
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Pan Zareta
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Is Arromanches still "in tact"? If so, he'd be MY pick for the stallion. If he isn't, we can "clone" him 
He's tough, well bred, good looking.
Looking for mare now And I only had to look as far as one of my own fillies 
A mating between ARROMANCHES and A THOUSAND DREAMS (by Indy Film) produces ZERO crosses of Phalaris in the first 9 generations. They'd make a cute couple too, since she is almost black and he is grey
He's tough, well bred, good looking.
Looking for mare now
And I only had to look as far as one of my own fillies A mating between ARROMANCHES and A THOUSAND DREAMS (by Indy Film) produces ZERO crosses of Phalaris in the first 9 generations. They'd make a cute couple too, since she is almost black and he is grey
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geowarrior
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Now this is becoming fun and interesting IMHO.
I've been working on it and trying various angles. My first idea was to try tail males to Man O' War (Godolphin, I thought, perhaps a better chance - and mirrors the suggestion made earlier by Pan, about Relaunch), and some of Jellac's Byerly Turk sirelines.
The Byerly Turks were a complete bust surprisingly. Lots of Phalaris crosses. See I learned something. Not sure what it means and would sure appreciate the input of Jellac on this.
Some tail males to Man O' War are close. Offspring of Bertrando, one example being Officer have a few Phalaris crosses only in the eighth generation. Therefore possibly a suitable offspring of Officer might be found, although I don't like to encourage adolescent parenthood. Some other tail males to Man O' War have been 'contaminated'.
However, although I realise that there are quite a few more examples of Godolphin Sires (although I think the 'unusual pedigrees' thread did not find any that were not through Man 'O War at least in N. Am) than Byerly Turk Sires (and I thought all our Byerly Turks were through Tourbillion), I am at a loss to understand why one can still find relatively 'uncontaminated' Godolphin Sires whereas the Byerly Turks seem to have a great many Phalaris crosses.
Another promising line is that of Real Quiet, again some of his offspring have crosses only in the eighth generation. I'm not quite sure how it is that the Real Quiet family lines have acheived this, but perhaps the In Reality/Relaunch factor is part of that story through the female side.
As has been pointed out in other threads - female lines are just as important and since I understand very little about them, I haven't been able to even hazard a guess as to what role female oriented breeding practices might have had in keeping a sire or dam relatively 'uncontaminated'.
So what I was working on was to hypomate Officer or an offspring of Officer with an offspring of Real Quiet. Which wouldn't eliminate the Phalaris crosses of course but put them beyond the ninth generation, and that hypomating would still yield relatively few Phalaris crosses. Haven't had success yet in getting them out completely.
So what do we have so far in terms of TB's with few crosses (male and female) to Phalaris - culled from postings so far (and my apologies if I've missed anyone's suggestion)?
The Officer pedigree (male)
The Real Quiet pedigree (male)
One or more sport horse pedigrees show promise (m/f)
The Arrowmanche pedigree (but is he intact? - still of interest even if he isn't) (male)
The A Thousand Dreams pedigree (female - no crosses!)
The Our Gary pedigree (male)
The Donthelumberjack pedigree (male)
Questions:
1. Can we find more?
a) If we can't find too many more then maybe the issue of Phalaris is moot. He's there too much and there's nothing can be done. Someone on another thread already felt this way and felt that the studbook would need to be opened. OR we get into the 5,000,000 post discussion of how many crosses of Phalaris is too many.
b) If we can find more, can we find them in racehorse pedigrees, or will we have more success in the sporthorse/showhorse pedigree areas?
2. If people accept the challenge and we do find more, other than the In Reality/Relaunch factor, are there any other commonalities in the pedigrees with few or no crosses?
3. If people find a number of factors/lines whatever you want to call them that produce few or no Phalaris crosses, would you care? I.e. would you actually be willing to breed selectively, utilizing these factors because you think the breed might be improved by doing that?
BTW one of the university classes I teach involves learning a particular type of mapping software. One of the tutorials I use involves the sinking of the Titanic. At a certain point in the tutorial, the software always crashes. I had no idea why. Now I know it's those 13 crosses to Phalaris. Expanding on this idea, it seems clear Phalaris has had a profound effect on Microsoft.
I've been working on it and trying various angles. My first idea was to try tail males to Man O' War (Godolphin, I thought, perhaps a better chance - and mirrors the suggestion made earlier by Pan, about Relaunch), and some of Jellac's Byerly Turk sirelines.
The Byerly Turks were a complete bust surprisingly. Lots of Phalaris crosses. See I learned something. Not sure what it means and would sure appreciate the input of Jellac on this.
Some tail males to Man O' War are close. Offspring of Bertrando, one example being Officer have a few Phalaris crosses only in the eighth generation. Therefore possibly a suitable offspring of Officer might be found, although I don't like to encourage adolescent parenthood. Some other tail males to Man O' War have been 'contaminated'.
However, although I realise that there are quite a few more examples of Godolphin Sires (although I think the 'unusual pedigrees' thread did not find any that were not through Man 'O War at least in N. Am) than Byerly Turk Sires (and I thought all our Byerly Turks were through Tourbillion), I am at a loss to understand why one can still find relatively 'uncontaminated' Godolphin Sires whereas the Byerly Turks seem to have a great many Phalaris crosses.
Another promising line is that of Real Quiet, again some of his offspring have crosses only in the eighth generation. I'm not quite sure how it is that the Real Quiet family lines have acheived this, but perhaps the In Reality/Relaunch factor is part of that story through the female side.
As has been pointed out in other threads - female lines are just as important and since I understand very little about them, I haven't been able to even hazard a guess as to what role female oriented breeding practices might have had in keeping a sire or dam relatively 'uncontaminated'.
So what I was working on was to hypomate Officer or an offspring of Officer with an offspring of Real Quiet. Which wouldn't eliminate the Phalaris crosses of course but put them beyond the ninth generation, and that hypomating would still yield relatively few Phalaris crosses. Haven't had success yet in getting them out completely.
So what do we have so far in terms of TB's with few crosses (male and female) to Phalaris - culled from postings so far (and my apologies if I've missed anyone's suggestion)?
The Officer pedigree (male)
The Real Quiet pedigree (male)
One or more sport horse pedigrees show promise (m/f)
The Arrowmanche pedigree (but is he intact? - still of interest even if he isn't) (male)
The A Thousand Dreams pedigree (female - no crosses!)
The Our Gary pedigree (male)
The Donthelumberjack pedigree (male)
Questions:
1. Can we find more?
a) If we can't find too many more then maybe the issue of Phalaris is moot. He's there too much and there's nothing can be done. Someone on another thread already felt this way and felt that the studbook would need to be opened. OR we get into the 5,000,000 post discussion of how many crosses of Phalaris is too many.
b) If we can find more, can we find them in racehorse pedigrees, or will we have more success in the sporthorse/showhorse pedigree areas?
2. If people accept the challenge and we do find more, other than the In Reality/Relaunch factor, are there any other commonalities in the pedigrees with few or no crosses?
3. If people find a number of factors/lines whatever you want to call them that produce few or no Phalaris crosses, would you care? I.e. would you actually be willing to breed selectively, utilizing these factors because you think the breed might be improved by doing that?
BTW one of the university classes I teach involves learning a particular type of mapping software. One of the tutorials I use involves the sinking of the Titanic. At a certain point in the tutorial, the software always crashes. I had no idea why. Now I know it's those 13 crosses to Phalaris. Expanding on this idea, it seems clear Phalaris has had a profound effect on Microsoft.
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geowarrior
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Another possible addition to the question of lack of Phalaris crosses in the Real Quiet Pedigree. Dr. Fager is prominent in that pedigree and according to StanCaris on another thread Dr. Fager is without lines to Phalaris.
So in the Real Quiet Pedigree we have both In Reality and Dr. Fager contributing their non-Phalaris input.
So in the Real Quiet Pedigree we have both In Reality and Dr. Fager contributing their non-Phalaris input.