Bluegrass Cat standing for $50,000 - can you justify this?

[Rokeby Forever]

This has to be the most overpriced first year stud fee of all time (even more than Ghostzapper's ridiculous $200,000 first year).

What was Bluegrass Cat as a racehorse? He did defeat Flashy Bull (remember him?), but then lost to Deputy Glitters at Tampa. His Bluegrass was worse than awful, he was a clunk-up 2nd in the Derby, got outkicked by a slow Jazil in the Belmont, won the weakest Haskell that I can remember, and defeated 3 horses in the Travers that didn't have a Grade 1 win between them.

What about his family? It's Phipps blue blood, but to find a successful stallion, you have to go back to Oscillate under the 3rd dam as the dam of Mutkaddim. There are some nice horses more closely related (Rhythm, Accellerator...), but they didn't turn out to be sires worth anything.

It strikes me that Bluegrass Cat is going to wind up in Cat Thief's league as a sire, and paying $50,000 for this horse in 2007 is simply nuts. Am I wrong in my thinking? I'm all ears.

[rudydee]

NO!!!!!!!!!

[jagger]

I will have to agree that 50K is too much for BC but I think his pedigree is VERY nice. He has 8 chefs and 8 reines in the first 4 generations. It is possible that the first 3 dams will be honored by Ellen Parker with reines status as they all have pretty impressive credentials. He has Double Copy mares for 9 consecutive generations back to La Troienne. ALL the mares in the first 4 generations on the dam's side are Double Copies and all but 2 on the sires side are Double Copies.

The problem with BC, as I see it, is avoiding inbreeding (further) as he already has many of the great sire lines. Hail to Reason, Relaunch, In Reality and maybe a few others is all that is left.

[Rokeby Forever]

You're right there, Jagger, because She' A Winner is so doubled up without Storm Cat adding to it. The family seems to be devoid of Roberto blood. I'm not saying that I'd jump in with a Roberto mare, but it's a family line that won't get tripled to Bluegrass Cat (forgetting the mare's dam side).

[xfactor fan]

Just remember to take into consideration, if he is a large heart stallion, he's not going to have large heart sons. And given that the money is in colts, breeders might beware.

[Rokeby Forever]

How can you judge "heart" in today's stallion that races only 6 times and cherrypicks races to make a resume look good?

Stallions of old raced 30-40 times and owners weren't afraid to lose a race...it was easy to judge if a horse had "fight." Today? Owners are so afraid of losing a race or carrying more than 117 pounds in a Handicap race that it's become impossible to tell.

How much "heart" did Bernardini have? How about Discreet Cat? Of the Arab horses, I'd be most inclined to breed to Invasor based on "heart" - he was never going to let Sun King pass him in The Whitney, and he looked Bernardini in the eye and went right on by.

[geowarrior]

I think x-factor was referring literally to physical size of the heart in response to Jagger who was alluding to 'double copy' mares, i.e. those which carry a double copy of the x chromosome which is supposedly related to the existence of an abnormally large heart in such horses as Secretariat.

[Keith]

Look at his bloodlines

Sire: Storm Cat
Broodmare Sire A.P. Indy
Sire of 2nd Dam Mr. Prospector
Sire of 3rd Dam Northern Dancer

Look at the great mares in his pedigree

Terlingua
Weekend Surprise
My Charmer
Numbered Account
Dance Number
Lassie Dear
Natalma
Somethingroyal

2nd dam a full sister to successful sire Not For Love

He has a very nice pedigree and a horse who ran 2nd in two of the three Triple Crown races isn't too shabby to me.

Is he way overpriced? He is better bred than Bernardini but not near the race horse. To knock his racing career is not right when you consider the very good three year olds that have raced this past year including the likes of Bernardini, Barbaro, Showing Up, ,Jazil, Brother Derek, Lawyer Ron,Too Much Bling, Discreet Cat, Henny Hughes,and so on.

Keith

[jagger]

My point exactly, Keith. 8(1) reines and probably at least 1 or 2 soon to be reines. I have NEVER found a horse with more double copy mares in the first four generations.

X-factor is also correct. Actually, what you want from BC is a double copy filly to breed in the hopes of getting a son who will have the "large heart". Unfortunately, just HAVING a large heart does not insure success. Having the large heart just means that a horse has more "potential" for developing stamina and being successful in longer races than a horse with a normal size heart. Developing stamina is a function of training techniques that, for the most part, are not much used in the United States. BC was probably traditionally trained and therefor his incredible potential for the classic distance was never fully realized. Unfortunately.

[Rokeby Forever]

Now I'm on to you..."heart" physical size. Well, why not then inbreed to Secretariat? I believe he had the biggest heart size ever measured.

Unfortunately, doubling to Secretariat is not a guarantee of stamina due to heart size. Take the $8 Million Mr Sekiguchi (Storm Cat - Welcome Surprise). He's a nice colt up to 4 furlongs.

[Rokeby Forever]

Please....at $500,000 a pop, Storm Cat is going to have every well bred mare at his disposal. Unfortunately, there are an awful lot of Vision & Verse/Scatmandu/Cat Thief/Classic Cats out there that tell me Storm Cat is more the ruination of fine families than a supporter of them. Offset knees, being high strung, and simply not replicating what's expected of him should be convincing people that Storm Cat ain't no Northern Dancer.

$125,000 for Forestry - 1 Millionaire (Thank you, Dubai!)
$300,000 for Giant's Causeway - 3 Millionaires

Compare his average son at stud to one by Sadler's Wells or Danehill. When will people realize that Storm Cat just isn't a sire of sires????

[ASB]

Whats with you and Storm Cat? Good God.

Take Danehill out of the picture and what Danzig sons are burning the world on fire? Furthermore, I would give much of the credit to Danehill's success as a sire to his female family. Most of the other Danzig's carry on ordinairy numbers for the most part... nothing wrong with that, but goodness, they're not the second coming either... no where close.

Giant's Causeway is getting some quality runners. If he was owned by different connections and his book and fee was adjusted accordingly, no one would be knocking the horse so much. He's a GOOD stallion... not 300k good, but he deserves 6 figures just as much as Bernadini does.

Storm Cat is doing well with Forestry (again, over-priced but that has everything to do with what buyers have made of them).

Bernstein is a decent, young stallion. Nothing was expected of him and he's delivered a little more than that.

Cat Thief is actually not a bad return of investment for 10k. Look at his recent runners, they're waking up. Think Arch.

Catienus has done remarkably well considering the mares he got. He's a good small market stallion.

Forest Wildcast is one of the most consistent stallions out there. In a world of CHEAP speed, he turns out legitimately fast horses of quality. The Phipp's are choosing him to incorporate that speed back into their mares. Enough said.

Hennessy... again, the connections seem to hurt him when it comes to public view. For whatever reason, Coolmore is villianized continuinly. I understand why, but dont knock the actual horses. He's consistent and can get you anything on the track and in the ring.

Pure Prize is an interesting addition to the stallion ranks. Im not surprised with his results, but I am surprised he's getting them from some of the mares he's had.

Storm Boot is VERY consistent. Cant argue he's useful.

Stormin Fever is actually a little underrated push come to shove. He started off with an inflated fee and its come down to a more realistic level. In all fairness, his place of stud hasnt been known to make too many young stallions.

Stormy Atlantic took the hard rode. From a Florida cast-away to a firmly established Kentucky stallion. His best will be hitting soon.

Tale of the Cat... gets consistently good runners. The sheer numbers of his foals skews his productivity just like every other Ashford stallion. More foals, more chances to hit, but just as many chances to miss. In this game, its easier to miss than hit, and he's hitting pretty well.

To be honest, im not the biggest Storm Cat supporter, but you cant argue that he's a horrible sire of sires and still be considered to be of sound mind. He's obviously no Mr. Prospector, but who the hell is???

Again, take Danehill out of the equation and Storm Cat and Danzig are very comparable, and I would even say the edge is given to Storm Cat, especially on the domestic front.

[ASB]

Just in fairness, lets talk Danzig and who's stateside from his line...

Anabaa-- unproven in the states but useful enough in Europe. Lets hope the Danzig line loves the poly... its what Castleton Lyons is betting on.

Belong to Me-- def. a solid stallion but for the lower markets. Priced right now. Disappointing broodmare sire to date though. Honestly thought thats where he would have excelled.

Brahms-- We own a Brahms filly. Her dam produces runners... she's been close but no cigar. I hope they turn it on but so far...

Dayjur-- Has there been many more bigger disappointments at stud? He was almost a sure thing in my book and then nothing.

Exchange Rate-- A young stallion who's doing OK. That female family is not known to produce stallions... just duds. Kinda liked this guy as a racehorse though.

Langfuhr-- Decent, solid type. Problem is, they either run well or they're very cheap. Tough gamble.

Lost Soldier-- Decent stallion who probably deserves to be a big fish in a regional market, not in Kentucky. Riding the coat-tails of one runner... but again, decent enough, but probably wrong market.

Military-- I happen to love Military. Would say he's a great choice for the breeding to race people on a budget.

Monashee Mountain-- Might actually surprise some people but we wont know that till US foals hit.

Mull of Kintyre-- I'll go on record now as stating I almost bred to him for next year but im going to wait on him. Good looking guy but again, one horse a stallion doesnt make.

Outflanker-- Ouch.

War Chant-- A tough one to read. Can get some good runners or get you nothing. Big gamble on this guy. Looks gorgeous in person though and wow, what a turn of foot while he raced.

So, again, with Danehill out of the picture, who happens to hail from the single best stallion producing family in the history of the breed(big statement but i'd argue for it), you would still consider Danzig a better sire of sires than Storm Cat?

[Rokeby Forever]

Oh, c'mon - Giant's Causeway has an AEI of 2.10 with mares having a CI of 3.64. He's gotten as good a book of mares as a sire can get and he's a bust. You can name me Oonagh MacCool, First Samurai, Sharmardal, and some more....but look at the mares he's gotten...and consider these horses didn't last all that long. There are plenty more $8 Million Mr. Sekiguchi's around than First Samurai's.

And, to be fair...remove AP Indy and what's your read on Seattle Slew as a sire of sires? If I remove Danehill, the Danzig sire list does diminish, but has Storm Cat sired anything close to AP Indy or Danehill as a stallion?

I don't get it...Storm cat is what, 25 years old? If he hasn't sired a top stallion yet, it ain't gonna happen!

[ASB]

So maybe, the real attention needs to shown on the fact that even without a "super star" son, yet, that Storm Cat has been a MORE CONSISTENT sire of sires than both Danzig and Seattle Slew??? Hmm...