Ideally...
How often should a trainer keep in touch with an owner?
Please list if you are a trainer, owner or currently neither a trainer or an owner.
Thank you.
Trainer/Owner Communication Poll
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angelsprite
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BJ,
I'm a trainer. I guess it depends on where the horse is in it's training, but I think the owner should be able to reach the trainer (in other words the trainer needs to answer the darn phone) and the trainer should be able to reach the owner (what I said before) as often as there is a need for it. If my owner wants to call me daily and ask after his horse and send kisses, that's fine with me. I'd rather have an involved owner who cares about his animal than one who won't answer the phone, that's for sure. And I bet owners feel the same way about trainers.
I'm a trainer. I guess it depends on where the horse is in it's training, but I think the owner should be able to reach the trainer (in other words the trainer needs to answer the darn phone) and the trainer should be able to reach the owner (what I said before) as often as there is a need for it. If my owner wants to call me daily and ask after his horse and send kisses, that's fine with me. I'd rather have an involved owner who cares about his animal than one who won't answer the phone, that's for sure. And I bet owners feel the same way about trainers.
People waste too much time on the phone talking about completely unimportant crap and it takes them forever to say it.
I'm waffling between once a week and whenever the trainer feels like it.
I H*A*T*E phone calls and I don't want to talk to someone who can't strip the call down to the most important details or keeps me on the phone for more than 3 minutes.
A once a week update with the most essential details is really all that should be necessary. Anything else, short of calls to say the horse pulled up lame in a work or is entered in a race, is completely redundant and totally unnecessary. I don't see the point behind a daily phone call to say "yup. we worked the horse. he worked well, cooled out nice and ate up. Just like he did yesterday.. and the day before that... and the day before that."
Hell, I'm sure most trainers have computers nowadays.. the once a week phone call isn't even necessary. Send a damned email for a weekly update. Shoot, I have family I don't even want to talk to once a week.
I would hope that the person I hire is competent to do his job without my hovering over him every day being a pest. I don't like to micromanage anymore than I want someone to micromanage me. Tell me what you want then get the hell out of my way and leave me alone to do it.
I'm waffling between once a week and whenever the trainer feels like it.
I H*A*T*E phone calls and I don't want to talk to someone who can't strip the call down to the most important details or keeps me on the phone for more than 3 minutes.
A once a week update with the most essential details is really all that should be necessary. Anything else, short of calls to say the horse pulled up lame in a work or is entered in a race, is completely redundant and totally unnecessary. I don't see the point behind a daily phone call to say "yup. we worked the horse. he worked well, cooled out nice and ate up. Just like he did yesterday.. and the day before that... and the day before that."
Hell, I'm sure most trainers have computers nowadays.. the once a week phone call isn't even necessary. Send a damned email for a weekly update. Shoot, I have family I don't even want to talk to once a week.
I would hope that the person I hire is competent to do his job without my hovering over him every day being a pest. I don't like to micromanage anymore than I want someone to micromanage me. Tell me what you want then get the hell out of my way and leave me alone to do it.
I think a better alternative answer would be "whatever satisfies both parties". I am a longtime owner, and have had several trainers over the years. I agree that much depends on the owner's interest, number of trainees, and crucial points in the horses' preparation.
Thankfully the worst communication problem I ever had was with a trainer's cellphone that could not be reached for days at a time. At about the time I'd had enough, he quit training, so we parted ways.
Thankfully the worst communication problem I ever had was with a trainer's cellphone that could not be reached for days at a time. At about the time I'd had enough, he quit training, so we parted ways.
Rocking H
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angelsprite
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Sam,
If I hated phone calls, I wouldn't have a phone and I would not take an outside horse in training. I wouldn't own a horse and put it with a trainer. As a trainer, I refuse to keep a horse in training if it's owner won't answer the phone. The reason is, horses are delicate and racing is strenuous. If a horse colicks or injures itself, the trainer should not have to pay big vet bills on a hope that the owner will cover it. A trainer is legally required to care for the horse, so he can't just decide not to vet it out. If the trainer doesn't happen to have the money, then the horse suffers. Many vets here DO NOT perform services without payment up front, although the track vets will, if the trainer assures them the owner will cover it. For the sake of the horse, the owner and trainer should be able to communicate easily. There are matches that work and matches that don't, but if a trainer is winning for you, probably it's the better deal to keep the horse with them and deal with the annoyance. If he's not winning, you need another trainer anyway.
If I hated phone calls, I wouldn't have a phone and I would not take an outside horse in training. I wouldn't own a horse and put it with a trainer. As a trainer, I refuse to keep a horse in training if it's owner won't answer the phone. The reason is, horses are delicate and racing is strenuous. If a horse colicks or injures itself, the trainer should not have to pay big vet bills on a hope that the owner will cover it. A trainer is legally required to care for the horse, so he can't just decide not to vet it out. If the trainer doesn't happen to have the money, then the horse suffers. Many vets here DO NOT perform services without payment up front, although the track vets will, if the trainer assures them the owner will cover it. For the sake of the horse, the owner and trainer should be able to communicate easily. There are matches that work and matches that don't, but if a trainer is winning for you, probably it's the better deal to keep the horse with them and deal with the annoyance. If he's not winning, you need another trainer anyway.
angelsprite wrote:As a trainer, I refuse to keep a horse in training if it's owner won't answer the phone.
I didn't say I don't answer them, just that I insist on brevity.
If I don't answer my phone, I'm busy. Leave a message and I will call back before the day is over IF the message requires a response. I'm not one of these people who believes every phone call, message, email, carrier pigeon needs a response, especially when the only logical response is a simple acknowledgment that I got the message. Again, there are far too many people out there who make comments when none are needed just because they have this overwhelming need to say SOMEthing so they can be a part of the conversation.
angelsprite wrote:The reason is, horses are delicate and racing is strenuous. If a horse colicks or injures itself, the trainer should not have to pay big vet bills on a hope that the owner will cover it.
Which is why I said "short of calls to say the horse pulled up lame in a work or is entered in a race". I assumed anyone reading that would understand colics, injuries, or any other emergency fell under the same rubric. Life is a need to know. I don't need to know that my horse did today the same thing he did yesterday or the day before or the week before. I DO need to know he blew his knee out and is going to be out of training for months if not permanently.
angelsprite wrote:For the sake of the horse, the owner and trainer should be able to communicate easily.
Exactly, and part of that ease of communication for me would be no unnecessary contact.
Calling me every morning to tell me the horse worked, came back fine and ate up is unnecessary contact -- especially since I'm going to have the horse in my virtual stable. Calling to tell me the horse wrenched his back and won't be working for a few weeks is important info -- feel free to email or make a phone call immediately. Hell, I'm more likely to respond to an email than a phone call anyway. I'll call the trainer if I have a question -- that wouldn't be all that often. I'd be more likely to just show up than I am to call. You can't lie to me in person. (BTW, this isn't that much of a hypothetical for me.. I'm aiming to be in this position in about 4 years at Retama -- which will be about an hour or so from where I will be living... which means I will most likely be there daily to watch the horse work anyway.. another reason I wouldn't need my trainer to contact me every day).
Trainers, to me, are like any other employee. Having been a manager, if I didn't trust my employees enough to do their jobs without sitting on their heads every day, they didn't stay my employee for very long. If there is a problem, call. If there is no problem and you are just calling me to report the status quo, DON'T. You're wasting both of our time. I would rather have a knowledgeable employee who can do his job without my constant supervision than one I have to call hourly or daily for a status report.
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angelsprite
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Sam,
I like that you might actually show up once in a while. Most owners don't. They call. I don't think there are many trainers out there who have all that much time while training to make unnecessary calls anyway.
On the subject of Retama, I know they usually keep it open for training, but since they aren't having any live race dates there in 2007, and only QHs after that, no TBs, I'm wondering if they will be operating differently. Does anyone know if they will keep it open for training?
I like that you might actually show up once in a while. Most owners don't. They call. I don't think there are many trainers out there who have all that much time while training to make unnecessary calls anyway.
On the subject of Retama, I know they usually keep it open for training, but since they aren't having any live race dates there in 2007, and only QHs after that, no TBs, I'm wondering if they will be operating differently. Does anyone know if they will keep it open for training?
Actually, having had horses in training and never being able to get any information... and I am talking weeks on end. Horse was even laid-up and we had to get the info from another trainer at another track. I think there should be an answer that says "Whenever the hell the owner feels like it".
I understand trainers and their time... I have a couple good friends who are trainers, however, they are taking care of someone else's critter and charging a fairly good sum to do so. Either they should not take outside horses, spell out exactly the type of communication expected, or charge enough to cover the "inconvenience" of talking to their owners. Hell, they are darn sure ready to talk to you for as much and as long as is necessary to "get" the horse.
I wish more owners would "fire" unresponsive and hard-to deal with trainers... then, maybe, they would feel more pressure to have some social skills and basic cliente responsibility. In many ways, there is an employment situation, like a contractor... and the trainer WORKS for the owner, however in most cases this sure doesn't seem to be the case. I know if I had a contractor or subcontractor working for me who behaved like most trainers, they wouldn't last long... or had better be so far superior to potential replacements that I would be willing to grant them that latitude.
By the way, how do trainers do their taxes... and has anyone ever considered sending theirs a 1099?
I understand trainers and their time... I have a couple good friends who are trainers, however, they are taking care of someone else's critter and charging a fairly good sum to do so. Either they should not take outside horses, spell out exactly the type of communication expected, or charge enough to cover the "inconvenience" of talking to their owners. Hell, they are darn sure ready to talk to you for as much and as long as is necessary to "get" the horse.
I wish more owners would "fire" unresponsive and hard-to deal with trainers... then, maybe, they would feel more pressure to have some social skills and basic cliente responsibility. In many ways, there is an employment situation, like a contractor... and the trainer WORKS for the owner, however in most cases this sure doesn't seem to be the case. I know if I had a contractor or subcontractor working for me who behaved like most trainers, they wouldn't last long... or had better be so far superior to potential replacements that I would be willing to grant them that latitude.
By the way, how do trainers do their taxes... and has anyone ever considered sending theirs a 1099?
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angelsprite
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Kal,
I agree that more trainers should feel responsibility to their clients. I totally agree that the owner needs to be made aware of any problems and especially a layoff, since you are paying the same amount for a horse to stand in his stall as you would for training, and that means the trainer is pocketing rider money. I hate to say it, but a conscientous trainer who has honor and doesn't want to rip you off is probably in the business to train horses and has too much integrity to dope them up. That means they have to train longer to get fit for a race and they may need some seasoning to be successful. All the while, the owner is paying and they want to win the first race, the second race, etc. If the top trainers are doping, the owner is going to want his horse with the top trainers. That's why I always prefer training my own. I will give them the time they need and conditioning they need, and if they need seasoning, they get it without me having to worry about the owner pulling the horse. I think what owners want and what is best for them, their horses, and the sport, are two entirely different things which cannot be reconciled.
On the tax thing, a trainer is supposed to be a professional, so you couldn't 1099 him any more than you could your doctor. You are paying him to "know" for you, essentially. But, the tax issue is an interesting angle on racing at the moment. The IRS is going after the big racing cartel because the government sees how the business is run and it's not being operated at higher levels with the intent of generating a profit, except where trainers are concerned. It's being run for the purpose of getting tax deductions to offset income from other sources. Interesting stuff, all on this one thread. I bet BJ didn't expect this kind of response!
I agree that more trainers should feel responsibility to their clients. I totally agree that the owner needs to be made aware of any problems and especially a layoff, since you are paying the same amount for a horse to stand in his stall as you would for training, and that means the trainer is pocketing rider money. I hate to say it, but a conscientous trainer who has honor and doesn't want to rip you off is probably in the business to train horses and has too much integrity to dope them up. That means they have to train longer to get fit for a race and they may need some seasoning to be successful. All the while, the owner is paying and they want to win the first race, the second race, etc. If the top trainers are doping, the owner is going to want his horse with the top trainers. That's why I always prefer training my own. I will give them the time they need and conditioning they need, and if they need seasoning, they get it without me having to worry about the owner pulling the horse. I think what owners want and what is best for them, their horses, and the sport, are two entirely different things which cannot be reconciled.
On the tax thing, a trainer is supposed to be a professional, so you couldn't 1099 him any more than you could your doctor. You are paying him to "know" for you, essentially. But, the tax issue is an interesting angle on racing at the moment. The IRS is going after the big racing cartel because the government sees how the business is run and it's not being operated at higher levels with the intent of generating a profit, except where trainers are concerned. It's being run for the purpose of getting tax deductions to offset income from other sources. Interesting stuff, all on this one thread. I bet BJ didn't expect this kind of response!
angelsprite wrote:On the subject of Retama, I know they usually keep it open for training, but since they aren't having any live race dates there in 2007, and only QHs after that, no TBs, I'm wondering if they will be operating differently. Does anyone know if they will keep it open for training?
Damn... how did I miss that? I thought Retama was moving to a mixed meet card (Quarters/Arabs/TBs/Paints/Appys) like Los Al?
This is a subject that has many answers.The biggest problems between an owner and a trainer is always communication issues. You have owners who dont care and a once a week phone call is good enough and you have other owners who want to know if their steed farted the wrong way.I've trained for both and both have their drawbacks and positives. An owner that is too hands on is usually a pain in the butt. I have found that those types of owners really dont want a trainer ,they want someone to caretake the horse and call all the shots from a far.Those types of owners should get there trainers licences.Usually the real prying owners generally change trainers every few years because they always second guess everything their trainers do to the point of near paranoia.
Part of the comminucation issues i have had with owners (current and prior) is that most people in the real world live a real world life.They are not up at 4AM every morning and they feel it is fine to phone their trainer while they are in the midst of training hours when most are so busy they cant even answer a phone or they choose to phone at 9-10 at night when a lot are already in la la land.These things need to be figured out through communication.
I know the horseracing industry is different but maybe it shouldnt be?I mean if you are a real estate investor do you phone your RE agent everyday to ask how your land is looking?How did it handle the wind last night?I doubt it.A person has been hired to do a job and should be left to do that.If you dont trust the person you've hired where a week or two without a phone call is a pressing issue then you probably hired the wrong person.
Ryeno
Part of the comminucation issues i have had with owners (current and prior) is that most people in the real world live a real world life.They are not up at 4AM every morning and they feel it is fine to phone their trainer while they are in the midst of training hours when most are so busy they cant even answer a phone or they choose to phone at 9-10 at night when a lot are already in la la land.These things need to be figured out through communication.
I know the horseracing industry is different but maybe it shouldnt be?I mean if you are a real estate investor do you phone your RE agent everyday to ask how your land is looking?How did it handle the wind last night?I doubt it.A person has been hired to do a job and should be left to do that.If you dont trust the person you've hired where a week or two without a phone call is a pressing issue then you probably hired the wrong person.
Ryeno
"The easiest way to end up with a million dollars in the horseracing business is to start with 3 million!"
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wilf
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If only the game was so simple eh? Once a week should cover the need to know stuff and during the racing stage I know as a trainer that things come up that owners need to decide on asap,then again some owners just want the facts when its real important or at the months end to get a check out to you. I just will not do that every day thing because someones elses horse might also enter into your frustrations that day. Contrary to popular belief we are rather busy most of the day and exhausted the rest of the time!
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Savana Star Dubois
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Savana Star Dubois wrote:Sam..no offense if you were my trainer..I'd be petrified to call you and have my feelings hurt
That would have to be a very real concern. I'm going to wind up with one of these 100yo, craggy, bitchy, pain in the ass type old horsemen because they are going to be the only kind willing and able to put up with me.
I'm not an easy person to work for if you aren't a competent person I can trust to do the job unsupervised. That's why I was moved so often when I was a store manager.. they sent me into the ghetto stores that had incredibly high shrinkage with one set of orders: "Get rid of EVERYONE, we don't care how you do it." Since it was (unwritten) company policy to not fire people unless we could prove theft, it was my job to make the employees lives as miserable as possible until they quit. I was very good at it, especially since I was always there even when I wasn't suppose to be. I'd show up without warning just because I happened to be in the area... and it scared the hell out of my employees even when the only thing I did was walk in, go to my office and close the door. My boss use to call me his drill instructor. If someone could survive 6 weeks with me, they generally wound up a manager in some other store.