With everyone hung up on "sire of sires" through the Northern Dancer and Mr P lines, why is Hail To Reason never mentioned? Where would racing be today without him? You can give me a million examples of successes through the Northern Dancer and Mr P sire lines, but for durability, class, and passing on soundness, give me Hail To Reason over any line any day!
Just my humble opinion.
Unbridled's Song as a "sire of sires"
Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, madelyn
-
Rokeby Forever
- Darley line
- Posts: 6684
- Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:52 pm
- Location: Reno, NV
Unbridled's Song
Unbridled's Song has Grade I winners but how many of them are multiple Grade I winners other than Splendid Blendid? For $200,000 shouldn't a stallion sire several multiple Grade I winners. One does have to question soundness when you consider Buddha and Rockport Harbor. Many awesome stallions never go on to be a sire of sires especially when you consider Alydar, Bold Bidder, Bull Lea, and so on. Some go on to be great broodmare sires. Dixieland Band has not set the world on fire as a sire of sires but he is making his mark as a broodmare sire. Great broodmares make awesome sires great. If you are an awesome sire like Storm Cat you become a great sire because you get the best mares in the world. You look at sires like El Prado, Dynaformer, and Saint Ballado who were noy bred to the best mares and were able to sire millionares, eclipse award winners, and a Kentucky Derby winner something that Storm Cat has yet to achieve. I am comparing three stallions to one because even when all three stallions hit the $100,000 and up stud fees their stud fees combined were still less than Storm Cat's stud fee.
Keith
Keith
-
Rokeby Forever
- Darley line
- Posts: 6684
- Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:52 pm
- Location: Reno, NV
I'm still wondering what Giant's Causeway has done to merit a $300,000 fee.
Everyone says that he's overbred, which is true, but out of 200 mares a year, shouldn't he be doing better than 25% winners/foals of racing age and 3% SWs? And, it's not like he's being bred to full sisters to Mr Ed. At $300,000 a pop, he's getting plenty of correct stakes winners/stakes winning producers.
He can hit the home run - Aragorn, Sharmardal, and First Samurai. But keep going...for $300,000, wouldn't you expect more than that? These 3 horses were produced from overbred books just like the 75% of his foals of racing age that haven't broken their maidens.
Other 3 year sires are also overbooked, but don't get anywhere near the quality of mare as does Giant's Causeway. Just compare GC's numbers to a 3 year sire like More Than Ready. Even though More than Ready gets "only" 149 foals (average) a year, he's got more Stakes Winners, winners, repeat winners, and his CI isn't anywhere near as high as GC's.
Oops, I forgot...More Than Ready is from the Hail To Reason line. Who wants that?
Yep, in the breeding world, hype makes the world go round.
Everyone says that he's overbred, which is true, but out of 200 mares a year, shouldn't he be doing better than 25% winners/foals of racing age and 3% SWs? And, it's not like he's being bred to full sisters to Mr Ed. At $300,000 a pop, he's getting plenty of correct stakes winners/stakes winning producers.
He can hit the home run - Aragorn, Sharmardal, and First Samurai. But keep going...for $300,000, wouldn't you expect more than that? These 3 horses were produced from overbred books just like the 75% of his foals of racing age that haven't broken their maidens.
Other 3 year sires are also overbooked, but don't get anywhere near the quality of mare as does Giant's Causeway. Just compare GC's numbers to a 3 year sire like More Than Ready. Even though More than Ready gets "only" 149 foals (average) a year, he's got more Stakes Winners, winners, repeat winners, and his CI isn't anywhere near as high as GC's.
Oops, I forgot...More Than Ready is from the Hail To Reason line. Who wants that?
Yep, in the breeding world, hype makes the world go round.
Stallion who have done more with less
At least Giant's Causeway is proven to sire classic winners eventhough they are in Europe. $300,000 is way overpriced when you can breed to a Dynaformer or an El Prado at a fraction of the cost of Giant's Causeway. How is his full brother Freud justified at $10,000? You want to talk about overpriced you should be mentioning Smarty Jones, Bernardini, Mineshaft, Ghostzapper, and Empire Maker who are all unproven. Should siring a Kentucky Derby winner merit you a $100,000 stud fee like that of Elusive Quality or a $225,000 stud fell like that of Distorted Humor. Distorted Humor and Elusive Quality did not get the best mares on the start but should that merit such steep stud fees so soon. Distorted Humor is a bargain when compared to Giant's Causeway. Distorted Humor has sired 11% stakes winners. People pay the big money for Giant's Causeway because he gets the big horse regardless of the so many that do not break their maiden. You have to remember that many do not start because some have little racing ability and are far worth more as a broodmare. Unraced broodmares who are full sisters to top notch horses being by top stallions bring alot more than unraced stallions who are bred out of this world. A good looking unraced Giant's Causeway mare with little racing abilty but has a great pedigree only loses value when she is raced. I just do not how hyped unproven stallions start out at $100,000 stud fee and their stud fees go down year after year. Someone has to be losing alot of money especially when you consider a horse like Point Given.
Keith
Keith
Uh oh, looks like folks are being naughty. You got Roguelet's attention. It's like when teachers yell at a class of kids. Everybody gets quiet and a little scared because this is the teacher's way of breaking bad even though I know Roguelet wasn't gonna beat anybody down per se.
I really don't think Unbridled's Song has really had many sons at stud for long enough to judge his sire-of-sires-dom properly. Storm Cat on the other hand... I still say for what he's sired himself, his sons are woefully underachieving in the shed, are a dime a dozen, and Giant's Causeway is hugely overrated. I'm not myself a huge fan of Unbridled's Song but I won't assume it's not gonna happen for him just yet. This makes no assumptions on their soundness of course, just siring winning offspring that make the big bucks. I happen to enjoy Include and Tiznow--not sure if people gush about Cee's Tizzy or Broad Brush as big sires of sires but technically it's in the offing and notice neither of the sons I just mentioned is $100,000.
I'd submit to Rokeby that the reason people pay so much is only partly the breeding because obviously most horses--I've read--cost $2 for every $1 they earn, but also it's due to a)hope and b)a p*ssing contest. No way does a Mr. Sekiguchi or The Green Monkey happen at that level without a massive amount of machismo. They also, I'd wager, have a tiny lil dream of paying that much, winning the Triple Crown, and making a bagillion dollars on horses that, themselves, go on to greatness. It makes them rich geniuses with a place in history. Doesn't take a lot of brains or planning to take hope for a champion and greed for breeding dollars into a bidding war leading to a $8 million price tag. I still feel breeding your own champion is the real test of greatness in the breeding game. I'm sure that had something to do with Bernardini's retirement. I don't think Darley could stand waiting for him and they sense something special. He might do AP Indy proud, ya never know.
I really don't think Unbridled's Song has really had many sons at stud for long enough to judge his sire-of-sires-dom properly. Storm Cat on the other hand... I still say for what he's sired himself, his sons are woefully underachieving in the shed, are a dime a dozen, and Giant's Causeway is hugely overrated. I'm not myself a huge fan of Unbridled's Song but I won't assume it's not gonna happen for him just yet. This makes no assumptions on their soundness of course, just siring winning offspring that make the big bucks. I happen to enjoy Include and Tiznow--not sure if people gush about Cee's Tizzy or Broad Brush as big sires of sires but technically it's in the offing and notice neither of the sons I just mentioned is $100,000.
I'd submit to Rokeby that the reason people pay so much is only partly the breeding because obviously most horses--I've read--cost $2 for every $1 they earn, but also it's due to a)hope and b)a p*ssing contest. No way does a Mr. Sekiguchi or The Green Monkey happen at that level without a massive amount of machismo. They also, I'd wager, have a tiny lil dream of paying that much, winning the Triple Crown, and making a bagillion dollars on horses that, themselves, go on to greatness. It makes them rich geniuses with a place in history. Doesn't take a lot of brains or planning to take hope for a champion and greed for breeding dollars into a bidding war leading to a $8 million price tag. I still feel breeding your own champion is the real test of greatness in the breeding game. I'm sure that had something to do with Bernardini's retirement. I don't think Darley could stand waiting for him and they sense something special. He might do AP Indy proud, ya never know.
"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana"
-
Rokeby Forever
- Darley line
- Posts: 6684
- Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:52 pm
- Location: Reno, NV
Roguelet isn't simply a schoolteacher figure....Roguelet is the Dean! LOL!
That being said....
I have to agree with points both Keith and Heidi made. And, yes...the real test of greatness is breeding one's own champion. In that department, I proudly like to remind folks of Rokeby Stable.
Mr. Mellon did by an early son of Storm Cat named Leap To Flame for $525,000. Without going into detail, Mr Miller couldn't wait to cut the colt, and eventually sold him in a Fasig Tipton Horses-of-racing-age sale. I believe that he wound up running in $25,000 claimers for the Anthony Margotta barn. I suppose if the horse were in another barn or raced in 2006, he would have run only twice and then been retired to stand stud in Mississippi for a case of Gatorade and a tank of gas.
I guess new sires standing at $100,000 is based on the market - if foals can sell for 2X fee and expenses, they're worth the price. Let's assume Bernardini's and/or Smarty Jones' first crop average $250,000 at the sales..from a seller standpoint, these stallions are sound investments. Does the average runner figure to earn that much? Um...no.
Bernardini's fee is interesting because other sons of AP Indy don't stand for nearly as much. Aptitude was a fine racehorse, as were Stephen Got Even, and Golden Missile, but their siring prowess (or lack of thereof) doesn't portend that Bernardini will help make AP Indy that "sire of sires."
Other than that, I'd only repeat what Heidi and Keith wrote....and they're both much more eloquent than am I.
That being said....
I have to agree with points both Keith and Heidi made. And, yes...the real test of greatness is breeding one's own champion. In that department, I proudly like to remind folks of Rokeby Stable.
Mr. Mellon did by an early son of Storm Cat named Leap To Flame for $525,000. Without going into detail, Mr Miller couldn't wait to cut the colt, and eventually sold him in a Fasig Tipton Horses-of-racing-age sale. I believe that he wound up running in $25,000 claimers for the Anthony Margotta barn. I suppose if the horse were in another barn or raced in 2006, he would have run only twice and then been retired to stand stud in Mississippi for a case of Gatorade and a tank of gas.
I guess new sires standing at $100,000 is based on the market - if foals can sell for 2X fee and expenses, they're worth the price. Let's assume Bernardini's and/or Smarty Jones' first crop average $250,000 at the sales..from a seller standpoint, these stallions are sound investments. Does the average runner figure to earn that much? Um...no.
Bernardini's fee is interesting because other sons of AP Indy don't stand for nearly as much. Aptitude was a fine racehorse, as were Stephen Got Even, and Golden Missile, but their siring prowess (or lack of thereof) doesn't portend that Bernardini will help make AP Indy that "sire of sires."
Other than that, I'd only repeat what Heidi and Keith wrote....and they're both much more eloquent than am I.
-
Rokeby Forever
- Darley line
- Posts: 6684
- Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:52 pm
- Location: Reno, NV
-
Rokeby Forever
- Darley line
- Posts: 6684
- Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:52 pm
- Location: Reno, NV
-
foxtale
- Maiden Special Weight
- Posts: 177
- Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 6:50 pm
- Location: Coopersburg, Pennsylvania
- Contact:
I am standing a nice son of Unbridled Song in PA, Song OF The Sword, he may not have the greatest record, but he was 2nd in the Illinois Derby g2, and 3rd in the Lexington S g3 and he did finish 11th in Smarty Jones' KY Derby and retired sound with $269,555. He is big and handsome and straight and correct. Come and see him for yourself. Thanks ! www.foxtalestud.com
Let us help you to take advantage of lucrative PENNSYLVANIA Bred Breeding and Racing Incentive Programs worth over $20 MILLION annually.
Standing in 2010: www.foxtalestud.com
CAPITANO
RUBIYAT
SMART GUY
Standing in 2010: www.foxtalestud.com
CAPITANO
RUBIYAT
SMART GUY
-
Rokeby Forever
- Darley line
- Posts: 6684
- Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:52 pm
- Location: Reno, NV
-
foxtale
- Maiden Special Weight
- Posts: 177
- Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 6:50 pm
- Location: Coopersburg, Pennsylvania
- Contact:
Song Of The Sword
Thank you, his first foals are due in Feb & I'll post them on our website.
Let us help you to take advantage of lucrative PENNSYLVANIA Bred Breeding and Racing Incentive Programs worth over $20 MILLION annually.
Standing in 2010: www.foxtalestud.com
CAPITANO
RUBIYAT
SMART GUY
Standing in 2010: www.foxtalestud.com
CAPITANO
RUBIYAT
SMART GUY
-
brogers
- Allowance Winner
- Posts: 451
- Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 12:50 pm
- Location: Lexington, Kentucky
- Contact:
Rokeby
You started this thread with the a priori assumption that
Have you proof of this guarantee? I think not.
Unbridled's Song averages 71% of his foals born getting to the races which is the same as Smart Strike, slightly less than AP Indy (72%) and Storm Cat (74%) but better than Distorted Humor (68%) and Touch Gold (68%). Do we call any of these other stallions "unsound influences"?
Unbridled's Song averages 8.72 starts per foal which is only marginally less than Kingmambo (8.82) and better than AP Indy (8.7) and Storm Cat (8.40). When they get to the races the average Unbridled's Song runner races 12.26 times. Hardly unsound when one considers AP Indy's average 12.06 starts, Kingmambo's 11.75 starts, Storm Cat's 11.41 starts and Awesome Again's 11.18 starts.
No, his progeny are not as sound as Crafty Prospector (85% Starters from foals, 19.07 starts per foal and 22.41 starts per runner), but often talent and soundness do not go hand in hand and Unbridled's Song is at least the equivalent of many of his commerical peers and certainly no worse.
I think that your general issue is with the commerical breed as a whole racing less and less, and I don't disagree that this issue needs to be raised, but to make Unbridled's Song your poster boy is misguided.
You started this thread with the a priori assumption that
For $200,000, Unbridled's Song not only guarantees an unsound horse...
Have you proof of this guarantee? I think not.
Unbridled's Song averages 71% of his foals born getting to the races which is the same as Smart Strike, slightly less than AP Indy (72%) and Storm Cat (74%) but better than Distorted Humor (68%) and Touch Gold (68%). Do we call any of these other stallions "unsound influences"?
Unbridled's Song averages 8.72 starts per foal which is only marginally less than Kingmambo (8.82) and better than AP Indy (8.7) and Storm Cat (8.40). When they get to the races the average Unbridled's Song runner races 12.26 times. Hardly unsound when one considers AP Indy's average 12.06 starts, Kingmambo's 11.75 starts, Storm Cat's 11.41 starts and Awesome Again's 11.18 starts.
No, his progeny are not as sound as Crafty Prospector (85% Starters from foals, 19.07 starts per foal and 22.41 starts per runner), but often talent and soundness do not go hand in hand and Unbridled's Song is at least the equivalent of many of his commerical peers and certainly no worse.
I think that your general issue is with the commerical breed as a whole racing less and less, and I don't disagree that this issue needs to be raised, but to make Unbridled's Song your poster boy is misguided.