Jump Start

[henthorn]

I don't know all the decisions on Pioneering, but early in the fall, Overbrook was being very picky on mares that would visit his harem. So many breeders wanted him at the $5,000 fee that Overbrook could easily shuffle through to get the best ones booked.

I don't understand the low fees either, but these are not just "backyard" mares. The crop from this season's matings should be stellar, and promise to set him up for high fees in the future.

[Rokeby Forever]

I don't know how, at age 14 (I believe), Overbrook is suddenly going to transform Pioneering into a $20,000 type sire, which he should be. He kind of reminds me of Evansville Slew when he was standing in Kentucky - competely overlooked, maybe because the foals aren't the prettiest, or maybe because nobody wants the blue collar earner any more.

About my comment about Pioneering being bred to "Backyard mares," the CI of his books in prior years haven't been anything to write home about, but all the stats I listed show that Pioneering has been a heck of a sire with what he's been given to work with (no pun intended). I just don't understand how this horse NEVER was able to ride some of the Storm Cat coattails.

[henthorn]

Me neither!

[KAL]

First, my biggest concern with Jump Start would be exactly what horsenuts eluded to and Rokeby and Betsy drove home, his family’s soundness. There are not many starts in that female family and there is significant heartbreak. I just hope his foals have better fates… and their connections a little more patience.

I believe Pioneerings fee has been $5,000 for quite some time. I don't see too many people being excited about that... and, while I don't know how many mares he received in 2006, we do know he only received 34 in 2005. (By reference, Jump Start got 104).

We also know that Pioneering yearlings only have a sales median of $12,500 for lifetime and $8,000 for 2006. He has had exactly one Grade I winner (the talented FILLY Behaving Badly). Only a couple Grade two or three winners. Much of his Black Type success has come from South America, which doesn't help much here.

It can be said that he improves his mares if looking at the AEI vs. CI, but how much of that is due to the fact his foals, including his most talented ones, get to run until they are 8 because their is no pressure to retire them. At least they seem to be sound, with about 14 starts per foal, but they are not winning consistently at a high level.

As a breed to race, he is useful, but I don't see how anyone can, in any way, justify breeding to him commercially. I think Rokeby is spot on with his thoughts concerning the Blue Collar Horse.

Now, it can be argued that initially he did not get a whole lot of support… which is where I would fault Overbrook. However, his stellar race record and the fact they had Carson City and Storm Cat does give them some excuses for not using their own mares.

I simply don’t see how Pioneering can possibly be getting a full book at this stage… nor do I see them being all that picky… unless there has been a huge increase from the breed to race sector because of breeder awards OR unless he is having problems in the shed. After all some of his problems are, I feel, the same as other Overbrook stallions in that, I think, their stallions are farm-owned, thus they don’t even have shareholders to support them..

The continued commercial success of Storm Cat overshadows Overbrook’s other stallions and their desire to use them. The next few years will be very interesting and important in their future... what will they do once the Big Guy is no longer able to go?

[Rokeby Forever]

Is Grindstone still neck-and-neck with Real Quiet in the "What KY Derby winner would you NEVER want to breed to?" department? I don't get it....Empire Maker and Unbridled's Song didn't race much more than did Grindstone and they did/are doing OK at stud for a couple of broken down Unbridleds.

As long as the commerical market loves unsoundness, breakdowns, horses that don't race more than 10 times, and something that can sire a Grade 1 winner before it also breaks down (like Birdstone), I don't know why Grindstone isn't treated like the Hope Diamond.

[fastappy]

[quote="KAL"]I believe Pioneerings fee has been $5,000 for quite some time. I don't see too many people being excited about that... and, while I don't know how many mares he received in 2006, we do know he only received 34 in 2005. (By reference, Jump Start got 104).

I simply don’t see how Pioneering can possibly be getting a full book at this stage… nor do I see them being all that picky… unless there has been a huge increase from the breed to race sector because of breeder awards OR unless he is having problems in the shed. After all some of his problems are, I feel, the same as other Overbrook stallions in that, I think, their stallions are farm-owned, thus they don’t even have shareholders to support them.. [/quote]

Pioneering got 125 mares in 2006 and will probably get the same this year. He is becoming a Slew City Slew type and/or popular breed to race sire.

When you throw in Monarchos you have to wonder if the importance of being a Kentucky Derby winner impact and whether it means less now than in the past. Giacomo is 12,500, Monarchos is 7,500, etc.

[Sam]

When you throw in Monarchos you have to wonder if the importance of being a Kentucky Derby winner impact and whether it means less now than in the past. Giacomo is 12,500, Monarchos is 7,500, etc.

It isn't just Derby winners. It's classic winners in general over the last 15-20 years.

Who was the last really significant American Classic winner turned sire? A.P. Indy? Prior to that, the only ones I can come up with would be Unbridled, Summer Squall and Pine Bluff.

I'm going to go pass out... I should have stayed in LA... this 6 hours down for a 3 hour meeting and 6 hours back in the same day is a pain in my ass.

[Rokeby Forever]

I think Ashford would call Fu Peg pretty significant, as well as Thunder Gulch. And a lot of people are betting that Smarty Jones, Empire Maker, and Bernardini turn out to be significant - $100K a pop for each, is it?

[Sam]

I think Ashford would call Fu Peg pretty significant, as well as Thunder Gulch. And a lot of people are betting that Smarty Jones, Empire Maker, and Bernardini turn out to be significant - $100K a pop for each, is it?

Neither Smarty Jones, Empire Maker nor Bernardini have foals of racing age so to call them a significant sire is horrifically premature.

Thunder Gulch has a SERIOUS sex bias and has had one for his entire career... something never really mentioned by Three Chimneys. Sex biases in themselves are not bad things... provided the bias is toward colts. His is not. Eight of his top ten earners are mares as are most of his G1 winners. This is not to say he is a bad sire, just that if you breed to him, pray for a mare.

You attack Giant's Causeway at every opportunity and label him a failure then turn around and imply F.U. Peg should be considered a significant sire?

[Rokeby Forever]

I didn't say Fu Peg was a success....I said he was "significant."

Thunder Gulch is by and large a "filly sire"....did you differentiate when you used the term "significant?"

Tabasco Cat turned out to be, for all intents, a disappointment. At least one son of Storm Cat has an excuse - he won a Classic.

[Rokeby Forever]

And, as far as:

"Prior to that, the only ones I can come up with would be Unbridled, Summer Squall and Pine Bluff. "

Sunday Silence wasn't "significant?" Wanna tell that to the Japanese?

Darn it!!! Cat Thief didn't beat Charismatic....I would have liked to have added him to the list of "insignificants."

[KAL]

Pioneering... 125?

Then I stand corrected... I guess he is gaining quite a bit of support from the breed-to-race folks. That is a 91 mare increase from 2005... Wow!

And to think, his sales average and median for 2006 is less than $9000. Do you think the breeders incentive funds are having this big an impact?

Okay... I still agree with Rokeby that it is a little late to turn him (Pioneering, not Rokeby) into a $20,000 stallion. I am not certain how this might translate into my thoughts about Overbrook and how they have managed their stallions... perhaps I have been unduly harsh.

[fastappy]

[quote="Rokeby Forever"]I didn't say Fu Peg was a success....I said he was "significant."

Thunder Gulch is by and large a "filly sire"....did you differentiate when you used the term "significant?"

Tabasco Cat turned out to be, for all intents, a disappointment. At least one son of Storm Cat has an excuse - he won a Classic.[/quote]

Tabasco Cat won the Preakness G1, Belmont G1, & Santa Anita Derby G1 and ran 18 times with 8 wins and 2.3 million in earnings. [b]Also 2nd in B.C. Classic.[/b]
FuPeg won the Kentucky Derby G1 & 2nd in the Preakness, running 9 times with 6 wins and 1.9 million in earnings.

So we know TC won a couple of more G1's than Fu Peg and hung around for twice as many races.

TC stood his first season at Overbrook in 1995 and was exported to Japan in 2000, yet sired Top Sprinter Snow Ridge, multiple G1 winning Habibti, G2 winners Cat's at Home, Freeforinternet, Spice Island, G3 winners Perfect Cat, Raylene, etc.

Snow Ride & Cats at Home are ranked 12th & 16th respectively on the 2006 1st crop Sires List (BH).

Tabasco Cat started 6 times as a 2 year old with 3 wins, including the Fort Springs S. and 3rd in the B.C. Juv.
Fu Peg ran 1 time as a 2 year old, running 2nd & earning $6,600.

[Rokeby Forever]

Don't get me wrong Fastappy....I'm NO fan of Fu Peg - I'm even less of a fan of Roman Ruler.

I don't think Fu Peg was the soundest of horses, mainly because he was twice as big as anything he ran against. Remember when he beat The Deputy at Santa Anita? He made The Deputy look like a pony. He wore fronts for the Wood Memorial (we later know why), and between the Preakness and BC Classic, he ran only once. Doesn't sound to me!

And, Kent Desormeaux was at his absolute WORST (I say that a lot about Desormeaux) in the Preakness...Red Bullet may have been (probably was) the better horse that day, but Jerry Bailey completely took Desormeaux to school in that race.

I'm not sure what Coolmore saw in Fu Peg to give $60 Million for him, except to breed him 200 times a year with the usual hype. The hype seems to have run out of steam. Why did I say he's "significant?" Only because he's been bred to so many mares, and with the strength of some female families, he might be a good broodie sire in time (the one saving grace for Giant's Causeway in time). Compared to Derby winners like Real Quiet and Grindstone, I think he's "significant" in that regard.

You named some nice horses sired by Tabasco Cat, but shipping him off to Japan says that not too many people here were impressed with his results. I remember a lot of his offspring sold really well and were never heard from. That's my lasting impression of him.

[fastappy]

I think because the Kentucky commercial market does not/didn't allow for a lot of patience in stallions proving themselves, coupled with the top dollars the Japanese were offering, a lot of good stallions such as Sunday Silence, Forty Niner, T.C., et al, were sent packing. Wild Rush being a more recent export, (Roses in May, etc.).

I believe T.C. will become a very good broodmare sire as well, but it is more of a guess as it is too early at this juncture to know for sure. We know Storm Cat mares place him #8 as BMS in 2006. I am a little biased in that I own a T.C. mare but I sent her to a Mr. P. stallion this year.

I was a Fu Peg fan when he was running and felt he had the best of opportunities with a great conditioner, Neil Drysdale.