Amanda and Roguelet,
Amen!
Topic from Barbaro thread, on new thread.
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angelsprite
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Think about how much the polytrack is used at Turfway, racing and training. It is a synthetic surface, with all the pressure from horses hooves, it is compacting and losing its cushion. Thus, the result of faster times and all the breakdowns.
But, it still goes back to trainer methods and the soundness of horses....
But, it still goes back to trainer methods and the soundness of horses....
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angelsprite
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ML,
You're probably right about that. I have no experience with the synthetic surfaces at all and I've been checking around with other trainers who have been talking about the differences. That has been one of the things I've heard. It's apparently changing with use.
Anyway, I had an idea and I wanted to run this past everyone on this thread, to see what y'all think of it. I'm considering applying for a grant to do some research from the training side. It may not be possible to get a government grant, though, because there are issues involved that I just wouldn't want to be responsible for. There are rules regarding the disposition of animals in government funded research. I would hope I could get funding from the NTRA, breed associations, or some entity in racing that is interested in seeing the results.
The trouble with lab research is, they are putting horses on treadmills, no real world comparisons to make. Field research in this industry without a barn full of horses is impossible. You can't go into a trainer's barn and say, will you volunteer to confess all your infractions, so we can gather data.
On the other hand, every horse on the track in a given meet can serve as a control, if I was to take a dozen horses to a track and run them clean, to gather data on the difference in breakdowns, success rate, earnings, etc. I know a good veterinarian who would work with me on this. He feels the way I do about the doping. After years of experience working as a track vet, he maintains that it just isn't necessary and in most cases does more to harm than help horses. Plus, I think a couple of my old profs would sign on for the work.
The benefits could be huge, as the work would be peer reviewed and we could publish, not only in the vet-med mags, but in every racing journal. I would want to select a number of sale babies and a number of home-breds for the project, equal numbers of each. If I can obtain grant money, day rate and vet bills could be reduced, if not eliminated for horses included in the study. I could race either at Lone Star or down in Lousisiana, or first go to Lone Star, then over to Louisiana. At Lone Star, the breakdowns are legendary, but I've raced there and haven't had one even come back sore. Tired, not sore. Louisiana purses are much higher, and the racing there is probably cleaner. The trainers are competetive, but they have pre and post race testing. I'm sure they are still getting by with things, but I bet it's tougher. That's another argument for Lone Star. At Lone Star, it's probably more like it is in most places in the country.
Anyway, this is what I'm thinking of. I suppose, if I can obtain funding, I could buy horses to do this with, but I really and truly believe it's better to do it with horses owned by owners. That way, it simulates the horses going through the race barns of other trainers. Not all have had the same start in life.
What do y'all think? If I were to do something like that, do any owners think they would want their horses included? Or would I be more likely to have to purchase horses for the study? After all, it's an experiment and owners do want to win. I'd be counting very heavily on succeeding with the horses, though it's possible, I may see statistics bear out the better performance of horses on performance enhancing drugs. I just don't expect that. But, objectivity is critical and if I do it, I have to let the numbers tell me what is true after the results are in.
Does anyone have any info or connections on funding that may be available for such a study? Or an association that might be willing to fund the project?
You're probably right about that. I have no experience with the synthetic surfaces at all and I've been checking around with other trainers who have been talking about the differences. That has been one of the things I've heard. It's apparently changing with use.
Anyway, I had an idea and I wanted to run this past everyone on this thread, to see what y'all think of it. I'm considering applying for a grant to do some research from the training side. It may not be possible to get a government grant, though, because there are issues involved that I just wouldn't want to be responsible for. There are rules regarding the disposition of animals in government funded research. I would hope I could get funding from the NTRA, breed associations, or some entity in racing that is interested in seeing the results.
The trouble with lab research is, they are putting horses on treadmills, no real world comparisons to make. Field research in this industry without a barn full of horses is impossible. You can't go into a trainer's barn and say, will you volunteer to confess all your infractions, so we can gather data.
On the other hand, every horse on the track in a given meet can serve as a control, if I was to take a dozen horses to a track and run them clean, to gather data on the difference in breakdowns, success rate, earnings, etc. I know a good veterinarian who would work with me on this. He feels the way I do about the doping. After years of experience working as a track vet, he maintains that it just isn't necessary and in most cases does more to harm than help horses. Plus, I think a couple of my old profs would sign on for the work.
The benefits could be huge, as the work would be peer reviewed and we could publish, not only in the vet-med mags, but in every racing journal. I would want to select a number of sale babies and a number of home-breds for the project, equal numbers of each. If I can obtain grant money, day rate and vet bills could be reduced, if not eliminated for horses included in the study. I could race either at Lone Star or down in Lousisiana, or first go to Lone Star, then over to Louisiana. At Lone Star, the breakdowns are legendary, but I've raced there and haven't had one even come back sore. Tired, not sore. Louisiana purses are much higher, and the racing there is probably cleaner. The trainers are competetive, but they have pre and post race testing. I'm sure they are still getting by with things, but I bet it's tougher. That's another argument for Lone Star. At Lone Star, it's probably more like it is in most places in the country.
Anyway, this is what I'm thinking of. I suppose, if I can obtain funding, I could buy horses to do this with, but I really and truly believe it's better to do it with horses owned by owners. That way, it simulates the horses going through the race barns of other trainers. Not all have had the same start in life.
What do y'all think? If I were to do something like that, do any owners think they would want their horses included? Or would I be more likely to have to purchase horses for the study? After all, it's an experiment and owners do want to win. I'd be counting very heavily on succeeding with the horses, though it's possible, I may see statistics bear out the better performance of horses on performance enhancing drugs. I just don't expect that. But, objectivity is critical and if I do it, I have to let the numbers tell me what is true after the results are in.
Does anyone have any info or connections on funding that may be available for such a study? Or an association that might be willing to fund the project?
Angelsprite,
Someone has to do something, and it has to start somewhere. It may be a baby step in the right direction, but a step none the less.
I admire your heart and desire to DO somethig, not to just sit back and wait for things to change. I think it's certainly worth looking into.
I wish I had buckets of money to throw your way. Unfortunately my buckets all have a giant hole in the bottom! But I do get a number of horses on the cuff that may be candidates for you.
If you do decide to look into this, please keep us posted. I imagine you would have a number of supporters here.
Someone has to do something, and it has to start somewhere. It may be a baby step in the right direction, but a step none the less.
I admire your heart and desire to DO somethig, not to just sit back and wait for things to change. I think it's certainly worth looking into.
I wish I had buckets of money to throw your way. Unfortunately my buckets all have a giant hole in the bottom! But I do get a number of horses on the cuff that may be candidates for you.
If you do decide to look into this, please keep us posted. I imagine you would have a number of supporters here.
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geowarrior
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geowarrior
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No problem, Rascal, I was getting confused with all the Barbaro siblings myself. As far as I know this is what we have (I beg that someone correct me if I'm wrong) in terms of Barbaro siblings/halfs:
Holy Ground (St. Ballado) - trained by Michael Matz, retired to stud while being brought back from suspensory injury.
Man In Havana (Quiet American) - in training, with Michael Matz
Unnamed (Dynaformer) yearling full brother
Unnamed in utero (Dynaformer) - supposedly male, due this spring
Holy Ground (St. Ballado) - trained by Michael Matz, retired to stud while being brought back from suspensory injury.
Man In Havana (Quiet American) - in training, with Michael Matz
Unnamed (Dynaformer) yearling full brother
Unnamed in utero (Dynaformer) - supposedly male, due this spring
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angelsprite
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I'm glad they decided to retire the horse. Suspensory injuries are nothing to play around with. I hope he gets plenty of quality foals. I'm sure they just didn't want to take any chances with this one.
We've already started looking into the research project here, and I believe it will be possible to get federal funding. The lab work is expensive and the people who have to be employed can't be just grooms at the race park. I wouldn't trust grooms around the horses that are supposed to remain clean. The people have to be qualified to participate in a serious field study, so obviously the money we're talking about is more than the associations could provide by themselves.
Also, the controls really need to be volunteered by several trainers, paralleling the research group in age, price, origin, and racing level. Getting trainers to volunteer their horses for regular blood work and physical exams and even perhaps having to disclose the drugs put into the horses, to the research team. It would be asking a pathological liar to tell the truth. This is the trouble with field research in racing. But, I'm sure I'll figure out a way around that problem. Blood work tells a lot, anyway, so probably that will be the most critical thing.
Anyway it will be months preparing the proposal and getting a research team together, and even if we get the funding, it will be 3 to 5 years before we can really view the results with a large enough sample size to know anything.
Amanda, I think the grant money will not be the biggest hurdle. For me, finding exactly the right horses to fit in the slots of age groups (2,3,4, and 5 year olds) with acceptable pedigrees or performance records, and the right owners, who won't try to pull their horses out of the program because the purses went up somewhere else, or some track just got slots. That's the challenge. It may be necessary to buy the horses. I don't want to buy horses for a federally funded study, because it would put the research horses at risk of having to be euthanized at the end of the program. Animal research with government funds has rules about what happens to the research animals when the study ends. Wouldn't want that, so it's better for people to volunteer horses that are owned by them, just as if they had put it in training with their own trainer. Those horses wouldn't fall into the same category as animals purchased with grant money.
I think it's a project that needs doing. The question is, if the results showed things that owners, trainers, and breeders didn't like to know, would the industry do anything about the problem, or just continue talking about track surfaces? The loss of bettors sure hasn't made the industry clean up. We can tell that by the number of suspensions coming down every year.
We've already started looking into the research project here, and I believe it will be possible to get federal funding. The lab work is expensive and the people who have to be employed can't be just grooms at the race park. I wouldn't trust grooms around the horses that are supposed to remain clean. The people have to be qualified to participate in a serious field study, so obviously the money we're talking about is more than the associations could provide by themselves.
Also, the controls really need to be volunteered by several trainers, paralleling the research group in age, price, origin, and racing level. Getting trainers to volunteer their horses for regular blood work and physical exams and even perhaps having to disclose the drugs put into the horses, to the research team. It would be asking a pathological liar to tell the truth. This is the trouble with field research in racing. But, I'm sure I'll figure out a way around that problem. Blood work tells a lot, anyway, so probably that will be the most critical thing.
Anyway it will be months preparing the proposal and getting a research team together, and even if we get the funding, it will be 3 to 5 years before we can really view the results with a large enough sample size to know anything.
Amanda, I think the grant money will not be the biggest hurdle. For me, finding exactly the right horses to fit in the slots of age groups (2,3,4, and 5 year olds) with acceptable pedigrees or performance records, and the right owners, who won't try to pull their horses out of the program because the purses went up somewhere else, or some track just got slots. That's the challenge. It may be necessary to buy the horses. I don't want to buy horses for a federally funded study, because it would put the research horses at risk of having to be euthanized at the end of the program. Animal research with government funds has rules about what happens to the research animals when the study ends. Wouldn't want that, so it's better for people to volunteer horses that are owned by them, just as if they had put it in training with their own trainer. Those horses wouldn't fall into the same category as animals purchased with grant money.
I think it's a project that needs doing. The question is, if the results showed things that owners, trainers, and breeders didn't like to know, would the industry do anything about the problem, or just continue talking about track surfaces? The loss of bettors sure hasn't made the industry clean up. We can tell that by the number of suspensions coming down every year.
Sprite, if you came out here, I'd let you train for me... I desperately want a trainer who will not "do stuff" to my horses. It goes against everything we believe in as owners and the whole foundation that we use to breed and raise our babies. Anyway, location is the only problem. I don't really want to send my horses that far away. Maybe you should come out here to do your study anyway... Indiana is supposed to be a zero tolerance state, allowing Bute and Lasix ONLY. Might make for a fun place to do the study.
I really wish more trainers would use natural methods and let the horse run on it's own talent. The mentality seems to be that since everyone else is doing it, a trainer HAS to do it to stay competitive. My thought on that is, if you're a trainer and you know that everyone else is doing it, start turning their *sses in.
I really wish more trainers would use natural methods and let the horse run on it's own talent. The mentality seems to be that since everyone else is doing it, a trainer HAS to do it to stay competitive. My thought on that is, if you're a trainer and you know that everyone else is doing it, start turning their *sses in.
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"Don't be a boorish buffoon" -Hokies Respect 'Jerk Alert'
"Don't be a boorish buffoon" -Hokies Respect 'Jerk Alert'
Barbaro: leg injuries
Several years ago I saw a story on a horse they fitted with a prosthetic leg. I have often wondered why it is not done with a popular or valuable horse like Barbaro. For mares, I would guess that they could not carry a foal. For a stallion, maybe it is not likely they could perform their duties. Or is it something in the breeding rules that would not allow them to take this course?
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geowarrior
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On the prosthesis question, I haven't read up on the subject but perhaps someone here can answer my question. It seems to me that it would be mechanically much more difficult to deal with a prosthesis on the hind leg of a horse than on the foreleg. Any thoughts on this?
And on Angel's research project, the design of such a project will be challenging, and it would seem that the grant required to fund it will be quite large, as costs will be high. However, it is a very interesting concept and I look forward to seeing how it pans out.
And on Angel's research project, the design of such a project will be challenging, and it would seem that the grant required to fund it will be quite large, as costs will be high. However, it is a very interesting concept and I look forward to seeing how it pans out.
Back in the 80s, one of my first racehorses received steroids without my permission. It never occurred to me to explicitly say, "Don't you dare..." but in retrospect, I think he would have given them to her anyway and tried to bluff his way through it. I never got a bill for it, and he never told me he was doing it. But, man! did she look good. WOW!! And then.... bowed tendon before her first start.
When I brought her home, she was like a stallion, screaming down the shedrow at every mare we passed, like a wild thing in her home paddock, nervous as heck. It took her months to get over it, while the light dawned on my marblehead slowly. Then I started to think about all of the other horses in the barn that looked like a million bucks and bowed a tendon.
Sadly, this mare died of an aortic aneurysm (like a heart attack) at age 19. But well before that, starting about age 11, she was a physical wreck. Her hind suspensiories gave out slowly, making her go lower and lower behind. Her back ached, maybe from a kidney problem. I had no problem getting her in foal the only time I bred her, but I was glad I didn't breed her again considering that she was sometimes a downer already at age 12. Steroids are evil things. I know that they can be useful to help a lagging horse with his appetite, etc., but if your horse is lagging that much, he shouldn't be in training. I think they should be banned from the vet's truck on the backside, and only dispensed with the permission of the vet office. And even that wouldn't guarantee that a horse didn't get them for performance reasons.
When I brought her home, she was like a stallion, screaming down the shedrow at every mare we passed, like a wild thing in her home paddock, nervous as heck. It took her months to get over it, while the light dawned on my marblehead slowly. Then I started to think about all of the other horses in the barn that looked like a million bucks and bowed a tendon.
Sadly, this mare died of an aortic aneurysm (like a heart attack) at age 19. But well before that, starting about age 11, she was a physical wreck. Her hind suspensiories gave out slowly, making her go lower and lower behind. Her back ached, maybe from a kidney problem. I had no problem getting her in foal the only time I bred her, but I was glad I didn't breed her again considering that she was sometimes a downer already at age 12. Steroids are evil things. I know that they can be useful to help a lagging horse with his appetite, etc., but if your horse is lagging that much, he shouldn't be in training. I think they should be banned from the vet's truck on the backside, and only dispensed with the permission of the vet office. And even that wouldn't guarantee that a horse didn't get them for performance reasons.
"When I am on my deathbed, I imagine I will say, 'Thank God I did that'" - Arthur Hancock, on buying back Gato del Sol from Europe after Exceller was killed in a slaughterhouse in Sweden.
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ratherrapid
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angel
angel--track research is badly needed imo. and ur right. the studies are so flawed. of course, this is common in human studies also. u wonder what it is these researchers are thinking.